[nagdu] Undoing traffic training

Thu Aug 6 16:54:38 UTC 2015

Hi Tracy and list, Another sure-fire way to undo it is, well, not to do traffic for a long time or take too long of a break in between. I know this from personal experience. My golden was with me when I went to the Criss Cole Rehabilitation Center for some career training in 2009 and 2010, and one of their policies, which I found out later and would have hesitated to go if I'd know before, was that due to cane travel being such an integrap part of  training, the orientation and mobility instructor had asked me politely that I use my cane for the majority of my travel at CCRC. I can't remember how long it was before she allowed half a day of dog work and half a day of cane work, but it was a good month or more before I was permitted to use my dog. He had to stay in the room while I went to class. This affected his work and he was already an anxious dog to begin with, but I attempted to address it with the staff, who just said the same thing the O and M instructor did, that it was part of the training. Had I known this, I would have thought harder about going, because after I got through with my training, he was more anxious than he was before that, and although his work was not stellar before, it was definitely worse than it was. So, that's a definite way to ruin traffic training is just not doing any practice. lol
Kerri
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 6, 2015, at 8:12 AM, Tracy Carcione via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I remember this lecture pretty well.  It made a big impression on me.  Lukas
> also discussed undoing traffic training at a NAGDU meeting at convention
> some time back.
> 
> Ways to undo traffic training:
> Cue the dog to go by pushing with the harness, moving as you say forward, or
> some such.  You may not even realize you're doing it.
> 
> Tell the dog to go when you hear a car coming, because you know you have the
> light and you assume the car will stop.
> This is something I always worry about.  There's only so much time to get
> across, and, if I wait for the guy cruising up to the light to stop, I'll
> have to wait another cycle, and hope some other guy doesn't do the same
> thing.  On the other hand, I don't really know for sure the idiot won't run
> the light, and I don't want to teach my dog it's fine to walk in front of a
> moving car.
> It also makes my husband crazy.  We have the light, or the stop sign, but I
> don't go because I hear someone coming, and he gets all impatient. He knows
> the reasons, but he still grumbles and grits his teeth.
> 
> There may be other ways to undo traffic training, but these are the ones I
> remember.
> Tracy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
> nagdu
> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 7:26 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Walking in new territory
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I may need to review the lecture, but basically, things like overriding your
> dog's reactions by, for example, pushing forward on the harness handle.
> Admittedly, it's been a while since I've listened to the traffic lecture. 
> 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194 
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 5, 2015, at 6:25 PM, Star Gazer via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>>                Very interesting Buddy. 
>> When I got my dogs, both from Leader what I remember is that the dogs were
> a
>> fail safe that they'd catch it if the human, either the handler or the
>> driver made an error. That never made sense to me. 
>> How did Seeing Eye say traffic training could be undone? Write me off list
>> if you'd like.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
> via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2015 4:35 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Walking in new territory
>> 
>> I really don't know why they don't mention it. Is it because they haven't
>> done the research? Is it because "it's just not that important"? No idea.
> No
>> one else has told me that their school mentioned anything of the kind, and
> I
>> know when I got Karl from GDB in 1996, they never mentioned it. About all
> we
>> got on traffic was "Oh, your dog will watch for traffic and check you if
>> there is any, either by stopping, slowing, or backing up". OK, that's
> great.
>> Then we had a day devoted to set up traffic checks. At Seeing Eye, traffic
>> was integral to the whole experience, and we had set up checks starting on
>> the second day of training and continuing throughout. Along with a very
>> thorough traffic seminar, including the above mentioned traffic judging
>> limitations and stresses on how traffic training can easily be undone and
> so
>> on. 
>> 
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194 
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Star Gazer via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>> 
>>>                Exactly Buddy. I've used the physics
>>> argument many times and people just look blank like they expect that it
>> will
>>> somehow be different because they want it to be. 
>>> Why don't other schools mention the 30 miles per hour and dogs reliably
>>> judging traffic?
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
>> via
>>> nagdu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2015 10:17 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Walking in new territory
>>> 
>>> Bloody hell! There are some times where it's just not safe to walk with
>>> cane, dog, or working eyeballs, and I think your whole route, both ways,
>>> sounds like just such a time. Suck it up and call a cab. 
>>> 
>>> Remember, too, that our dogs can't reliably judge traffic over about 30
>> MPH.
>>> As far as I know, none of the schools, apart from the Seeing Eye, which
>> has
>>> the most comprehensive traffic training out, and by extension, the most
>>> comprehensive traffic lectures out, will tell you this. To put this into
>>> perspective, at 30 miles an hour, a car takes maybe two seconds to travel
>>> 200 feet. Something like that, I'd have to review said traffic lecture.
>>> Point is, a pretty damned far piece, for a pedestrian, in a really really
>>> short amount of time. You canna' change the laws of physics, laws of
>>> physics, Jim! Speaking of which, physics always wins. You, the
> pedestrian,
>>> will always lose, in a contest with a truck. 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: 814-860-3194 
>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 2, 2015, at 10:01 PM, Lori Dent via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> Rick and I were talking about Gipp and me  walking from my grandmother's
>>> house to Wal Mart. When I leave my grandmother's house in her allotment
>> it's
>>> about a four block walk with no sidewalks to get to  the closest main
>>> street, route 43.  When I come out to route 43 there's no safe way to
>> cross
>>> the street.  Traffic from my left is just coming over a hill. I would
> have
>>> to turn right and walk , with traffic, for about a half mile to get to
> the
>>> first major intersection  which is route 18.  In fact that's the first
>>> street. 
>>>> 
>>>> Once  I come up to route 18 and  route 43 it's a light controlled
>>> intersection. I would need to turn left to cross over route 43. Once Gipp
>>> and I cross over route 43 we  will be walking down route 18 against
>> traffic
>>> without any sidewalks for about a mile and a half, maybe 2 miles. 
>>>> 
>>>> About a quarter mile  before I get to Wal Mart it starts to get
>>> interesting. I first have to cross an exit from interstate 76.  luckily
>> it's
>>> light controlled. A little further on we have an entrance to interstate
> 76
>> .
>>> Again light controlled. The last little bit I have to cross  is a
> business
>>> area that has a bunch of small shops and three or four graveled
> entrances.
>>> Then I come up  to the entrance to the Wall Mart lot. Then I turn left.
>> Not
>>> one sidewalk the entire time. 
>>>> 
>>>> Walking back to my grandmother's house from Wal Mart   I will have to
>> walk
>>> with traffic on route 18. Rick explained to me why it would be extremely
>>> unsafe to cross  route 18  and walk against traffic. First it would be
>>> crossing route 18 in front of Wal Mart. Even though there's a light there
>>> are no markings  to cross. But that's not the hard part. About a quarter
>>> mile up I would have to cross an exit from interstate 76 and Mogadore
>> Road.
>>> Traffic coming off of Mogadore Road and I-76 will enter route 18 at about
>> a
>>> 45 degree angle.  Traffic moves very fast there, there's no markings to
>>> cross and no light. It's extremely unsafe and Rick said he wouldn't try
> to
>>> cross it and he's sighted. 
>>>> 
>>>> Rick says there might be a way to cross. This is going to be hard to
>>> explain so bare with me. I could stay on the exit from I-76 facing
>> traffic,
>>> for about 200 feet. There is a traffic light at that point. It would be
>> very
>>> difficult to work with traffic .  Whether or not traffic from I-76 has a
>> red
>>> light traffic from Mogadore Road is making continuous right hand turns.
>> The
>>> drivers are watching the I-76 traffic to see if they can beat somebody
>> out.
>>> They never look to the right. 
>>>> 
>>>> Providing   I can cross  at this light I would walk about 50 feet, with
>>> traffic, so that I can cross at the next light. Traffic coming through
>> this
>>> light is either coming straight from Mogadore Road or making a left turn
>>> from I-76. Turning traffic could be coming down the ramp at least 40
> miles
>>> per hour and would not be able to see me until they made the turn  with
> no
>>> time to stop. 
>>>> 
>>>> Because of this one area Rick thinks it would be safer to walk home with
>>> traffic. 
>>>> 
>>>> I've talked to Rick about maybe having a trainer come out and look at
>> this
>>> area  to see what he or she thinks. do you think I should ask for a
>> trainer
>>> to come out or go by what Rick suggested?
>>>> 
>>>> Lori and the Gipper
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