[nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?

Aleeha Dudley blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com
Tue Aug 25 22:00:37 UTC 2015 

I think what she meant was that we have a choice to go to whichever school we choose. This means that if we want ownership, we should go to a school that offers it. While I do not agree with this sentiment, I do believe that that was the meaning behind the message. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Danielle Ledet via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Marian,  agree with regards to Sandra's story. OMG, that the GDB
> representative would publicly state that at convention and then,
> totally back out one-on-one over the phone! I wonder if Mike was
> dismissed for allowing your voice to be heard? I think tina meant that
> it was her choice to vote either way on the resolution.
> 
>> On 8/25/15, Sherry Gomes via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I wonder why the schools that don't give ownership immediately seem to
>> think
>> that a blind person is more likely to abuse, neglect or misuse a dog than a
>> sighted person who goes down to the humane society, fills out a few papers
>> and walks off with a new pet. T me, that's what conditional ownership
>> implies. We don't trust you to take care of your dog in the best way, so
>> we're going to withhold ownership until we decide you are worthy. And yes,
>> I
>> have gotten all my dogs from GDB, so I attend a school with conditional
>> ownership. and I don't like it. I have other reasons for going to GDB, but
>> I
>> don't like their ownership policy and have been trying to get on their
>> alumni board, specifically so I can try to argue for a policy change. Not
>> that I really think it will do any good.
>> 
>> Sherry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:06 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Michael Hingson; 'Tina Thomas'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>> 
>> Actually Tina,
>> 
>> There is more than one school in each of those countries. However, people
>> from both of those lands have traveled to the U.S. as well as other
>> countries to get their guide dogs.
>> 
>> The freedom of choice issue notwithstanding the schools offering
>> conditional
>> ownership and/or no ownership continue to hold in one form or another to
>> old
>> ideas of guide dog ownership and the "obligations" of the schools. You are
>> right that they don't get on board, but that is because they don't want to
>> and often this is because they do not value blind people the way we do.
>> While they might deny this their arguments are the same ones we have heard
>> many times before.
>> 
>> Let's turn it around. You receive your guide dogs from a school that does
>> and always has granted ownership right from the start. You see the value of
>> this. Why are you not fighting harder to insure that all guide dog users
>> who
>> go to all guide dog schools here get the same opportunity? Isn't that what
>> the fight for civil rights is all about?
>> 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina Thomas via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 12:51 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>> 
>> Marion- If my argument of freedom of choice is as thin as you make it out
>> to
>> be, then why haven't the schools who have conditional ownership got on
>> board
>> with you and others on this list way of thinking. Also, in the UK and South
>> Korea there is only one guide dog school covering those respective
>> countries
>> and the consumer's residing there either adhere to the policies of those
>> schools or they don't get a dog.
>> Tina
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:55 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>> Subject: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>> 
>> Tina,
>> 
>>    I know you assert you voted against the resolution on the grounds of
>> freedom of choice. I am confused, though, on what choice of the consumer is
>> limited by affording unconditional ownership upon completion of training.
>> Is
>> it the choice to be protected from unwarranted interference by the training
>> program? Is it the choice to have the dog removed arbitrarily and without
>> cause? Is it the choice to be fearful that the program might get a call
>> from
>> someone who decides to retaliate against and individual by filing a false
>> report of abuse? Is it the choice of being hesitant to contact the training
>> program to seek assistance on a behavioral or safety issue because the
>> program may think the user is incompetent and might take the dog away from
>> them? Can you please explain what freedom is impinged upon by transferring
>> unconditional ownership upon completion of training? Asserting that
>> ownership denies guide dog users freedom of choice seems illogical to me!
>> 
>>    I am of the opinion that providing ownership upon completion of
>> training does not compromise this freedom of choice; rather, it enhances
>> it.
>> Let me give you a specific example from the agreement I have with the guide
>> dog training program from which I received Sergeant. I guess I am a bit at
>> fault for not reading the agreement more closely; however, within the
>> agreement, it states that I will not let anyone else use my guide dog. I
>> suppose writing this message could compromise my relationship with GDF, but
>> I am confident in my ability to make choices about what is best for my
>> guide
>> dog and what are acceptable practices.
>> 
>>    As many of you know, my wife, merry, is an experienced guide dog
>> user who is now between guide dogs. Last week she attended a business
>> function in an area in which she was unfamiliar. She asked me if she could
>> use Sarge for the day and I had no problem with that. Now, if GDF wanted
>> to,
>> I guess they could say I breached their contract and take my dog away from
>> me; however, I also feel that, in the spirit of ownership, I have the right
>> to allow my wife to work my dog, if I wish.
>> 
>>    Now, I suppose it could be argued that the resolution limits freedom
>> of choice by not giving consumers the option of owning their dog or not.
>> If,
>> as the training programs assert, there is no difference in the way one is
>> treated or the services offered during and after the probationary period
>> why
>> do the programs still have such a paternalistic policy? The answer came
>> from
>> the representative of Leader dogs for the Blind during our panel
>> discussion,
>> and explanation that, like the assertion of freedom of choice, is a
>> questionable explanation: The donors want it! Really? Are donors really
>> conditioning their support of a training program on this policy or is it an
>> explanation that sounds good but has no merit? I contend it is the latter.
>> In fact, I would venture to guess that a vast majority of donors do not
>> even
>> know what Leader's ownership policy is, let alone make donation decisions
>> based upon it!
>>    Asserting that the resolution limits freedom of choice is that it
>> sounds good on the face of it but holds no water. Those programs that
>> transfer ownership upon completion of training offer no fewer services than
>> those who retain such ownership. Furthermore, those programs that transfer
>> ownership after a probationary period do not offer any more limited
>> services
>> to their consumers once ownership is transferred than they do prior to the
>> transfer. The major difference is that one voluntarily signs away their
>> rights to the dog with which they will form an emotional bond, an
>> investment
>> that, in my opinion, is far greater than any the program has in the dog.
>> Rather than the resolution limiting one's freedom of choice, it actually
>> enhances that freedom by allowing blind people to choose what they feel is
>> best for them and their dogs, rather than subjugating them to the custodial
>> policies and practices of a training program that asserts they know what is
>> best. How is such an assertion congruent with the philosophy of
>> self-determination held by the National Federation of the blind?
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina Thomas via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 11:28 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>> 
>> Hello Everyone- I want to reiterate that I voted no on the unconditional
>> ownership resolution because of freedom of choice. As I've said, there are
>> schools in this country that offer unconditional ownership and it is up to
>> the consumer  to decide what program suits their needs the best. Now, I'll
>> go back under my rock and work on cagdu business. *smile* Have an awesome
>> day everyone! Oh and for those of us who are experiencing hot weather, stay
>> cool and give you dogs water.
>> Tina
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 7:46 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>> Subject: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>>    I think Susan's story is less about what happened 40 years ago and
>> more about what could potentially happen now if guide dog training programs
>> do not grant unconditional ownership upon completion of training. When I
>> sat
>> on Southeastern Guide dogs' Graduate Advisory Council, I was a lone voice
>> advocating for ownership. Coincidentally, I was the only officially
>> appointed consumer representative. Though most other members were
>> affiliated
>> with the ACB, none of them sat on the GAC as an official representative of
>> that organization. Those affiliated with the ACB, especially one person,
>> said "We don't want to hear NFB rhetoric in these meetings!" Mike Sergeant
>> quickly intervened to say that my voice would be heard and asked some
>> questions about my stand. I was eventually able to help others understand
>> that my position was not a reflection of the current administration of
>> SEGDI
>> but a desire to create sound, long-term policies to protect consumers from
>> interference should a less responsive administration be seated in the
>> future. During the following meeting, the GAC proposed unconditional
>> ownership upon completion of training.
>> 
>> 
>>    Only a few short years later, Mike Sergeant was dismissed and
>> consumers voiced their dissatisfaction with the decision. We protested
>> outside the gates of SEGDI and asked to be heard. SEGDI called the
>> Sheriff's
>> office to make us leave; however, we were on public property and could not
>> be forced to disband. We have it on excellent authority that SEGDI
>> videorecorded the protest and created a blacklist of those who expressed
>> their dissatisfaction. I often wonder what might have happened if we had
>> not
>> been given ownership of our dogs.
>> 
>>    Though many opposed the resolution concerning ownership, I believe
>> the opposition was less about the terms of the resolution and more about
>> loyalty to those programs that do not grant such ownership. Some argue that
>> the program must have a good reason for their policies, though the only
>> reason we have been given is that their donors want it. With all due
>> respect, I don't believe the donors have really weighed in on this nor that
>> they have the understanding to make such a decision. Others contend it is
>> in
>> the best interest of the dog; however, those programs transferring
>> ownership
>> do have processes available to them to protect the dogs from abuse or
>> neglect without reserving such power and influence over their consumers'
>> lives.
>> 
>>    I believe the resolution will come up again and, when it does, it
>> will pass. For the time, though, there are more important issues with which
>> NAGDU is focused. Also, we will be more apt to make our membership aware of
>> the instances in which training programs insert themselves without just
>> cause. I do believe, though, there will always be those who will assert
>> there must be a good reason and defend the paternalistic attitudes of the
>> training programs.
>> 
>>    We would like the programs to comply with our requests for new
>> policies and will continue to advocate for such policy changes. We will
>> also
>> continue to educate our members about how such policies are incongruent
>> with
>> our philosophy and overcome the objections raised. Lastly, we will continue
>> to press those who have publicly stated they are willing to discuss these
>> policies but privately tell us they have no interest in doing so. Such was
>> the case when Christine Benninger, Executive Director of Guide Dogs for the
>> Blind stated during our 2014 meeting she would discuss this with us. When I
>> spoke with her on the telephone, she told me GDB had no desire to discuss
>> this with us and no intention to change their policy. Such unprincipled
>> behavior demonstrates lack of integrity and is cause for concern.
>> 
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby Phillips
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 8:44 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users;
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>> 
>> Just a thought about names.  If I went to a great restaurant, but it was
>> forty years ago, I probably wouldn't share the name, because 1.  the
>> restaurant might not even be there.  2.  If the restaurant still exists, it
>> might not be the same great place.
>> So why would I share a bad experience with an instructor that I had forty
>> years ago? I admit that I have done so, but hopefully not publicly as in
>> email.  If I have, I apologize.  It's not fair
>> to that person.    Debby and Nova
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Danielle
> 
> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
> 
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