[nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
Michael Hingson
mike at michaelhingson.com
Tue Aug 25 22:39:15 UTC 2015
I agree. However, the issue still remains that as a social action
organization should we not be committed to bringing about positive change at
all schools?
Best Regards,
Michael Hingson
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha Dudley via
nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 3:01 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
I think what she meant was that we have a choice to go to whichever school
we choose. This means that if we want ownership, we should go to a school
that offers it. While I do not agree with this sentiment, I do believe that
that was the meaning behind the message.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 25, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Danielle Ledet via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> Marian, agree with regards to Sandra's story. OMG, that the GDB
> representative would publicly state that at convention and then,
> totally back out one-on-one over the phone! I wonder if Mike was
> dismissed for allowing your voice to be heard? I think tina meant that
> it was her choice to vote either way on the resolution.
>
>> On 8/25/15, Sherry Gomes via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I wonder why the schools that don't give ownership immediately seem
>> to think that a blind person is more likely to abuse, neglect or
>> misuse a dog than a sighted person who goes down to the humane
>> society, fills out a few papers and walks off with a new pet. T me,
>> that's what conditional ownership implies. We don't trust you to take
>> care of your dog in the best way, so we're going to withhold
>> ownership until we decide you are worthy. And yes, I have gotten all
>> my dogs from GDB, so I attend a school with conditional ownership.
>> and I don't like it. I have other reasons for going to GDB, but I
>> don't like their ownership policy and have been trying to get on
>> their alumni board, specifically so I can try to argue for a policy
>> change. Not that I really think it will do any good.
>>
>> Sherry
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>> Hingson via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:06 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Michael Hingson; 'Tina Thomas'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> Actually Tina,
>>
>> There is more than one school in each of those countries. However,
>> people from both of those lands have traveled to the U.S. as well as
>> other countries to get their guide dogs.
>>
>> The freedom of choice issue notwithstanding the schools offering
>> conditional ownership and/or no ownership continue to hold in one
>> form or another to old ideas of guide dog ownership and the
>> "obligations" of the schools. You are right that they don't get on
>> board, but that is because they don't want to and often this is
>> because they do not value blind people the way we do.
>> While they might deny this their arguments are the same ones we have
>> heard many times before.
>>
>> Let's turn it around. You receive your guide dogs from a school that
>> does and always has granted ownership right from the start. You see
>> the value of this. Why are you not fighting harder to insure that all
>> guide dog users who go to all guide dog schools here get the same
>> opportunity? Isn't that what the fight for civil rights is all about?
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>> Thomas via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 12:51 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> Marion- If my argument of freedom of choice is as thin as you make it
>> out to be, then why haven't the schools who have conditional
>> ownership got on board with you and others on this list way of
>> thinking. Also, in the UK and South Korea there is only one guide dog
>> school covering those respective countries and the consumer's
>> residing there either adhere to the policies of those schools or they
>> don't get a dog.
>> Tina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion
>> Gwizdala via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:55 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>> Subject: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> Tina,
>>
>> I know you assert you voted against the resolution on the grounds
>> of freedom of choice. I am confused, though, on what choice of the
>> consumer is limited by affording unconditional ownership upon completion
of training.
>> Is
>> it the choice to be protected from unwarranted interference by the
>> training program? Is it the choice to have the dog removed
>> arbitrarily and without cause? Is it the choice to be fearful that
>> the program might get a call from someone who decides to retaliate
>> against and individual by filing a false report of abuse? Is it the
>> choice of being hesitant to contact the training program to seek
>> assistance on a behavioral or safety issue because the program may
>> think the user is incompetent and might take the dog away from them?
>> Can you please explain what freedom is impinged upon by transferring
>> unconditional ownership upon completion of training? Asserting that
>> ownership denies guide dog users freedom of choice seems illogical to me!
>>
>> I am of the opinion that providing ownership upon completion of
>> training does not compromise this freedom of choice; rather, it
>> enhances it.
>> Let me give you a specific example from the agreement I have with the
>> guide dog training program from which I received Sergeant. I guess I
>> am a bit at fault for not reading the agreement more closely;
>> however, within the agreement, it states that I will not let anyone
>> else use my guide dog. I suppose writing this message could
>> compromise my relationship with GDF, but I am confident in my ability
>> to make choices about what is best for my guide dog and what are
>> acceptable practices.
>>
>> As many of you know, my wife, merry, is an experienced guide dog
>> user who is now between guide dogs. Last week she attended a business
>> function in an area in which she was unfamiliar. She asked me if she
>> could use Sarge for the day and I had no problem with that. Now, if
>> GDF wanted to, I guess they could say I breached their contract and
>> take my dog away from me; however, I also feel that, in the spirit of
>> ownership, I have the right to allow my wife to work my dog, if I
>> wish.
>>
>> Now, I suppose it could be argued that the resolution limits
>> freedom of choice by not giving consumers the option of owning their dog
or not.
>> If,
>> as the training programs assert, there is no difference in the way
>> one is treated or the services offered during and after the
>> probationary period why do the programs still have such a
>> paternalistic policy? The answer came from the representative of
>> Leader dogs for the Blind during our panel discussion, and
>> explanation that, like the assertion of freedom of choice, is a
>> questionable explanation: The donors want it! Really? Are donors
>> really conditioning their support of a training program on this
>> policy or is it an explanation that sounds good but has no merit? I
contend it is the latter.
>> In fact, I would venture to guess that a vast majority of donors do
>> not even know what Leader's ownership policy is, let alone make
>> donation decisions based upon it!
>> Asserting that the resolution limits freedom of choice is that it
>> sounds good on the face of it but holds no water. Those programs that
>> transfer ownership upon completion of training offer no fewer
>> services than those who retain such ownership. Furthermore, those
>> programs that transfer ownership after a probationary period do not
>> offer any more limited services to their consumers once ownership is
>> transferred than they do prior to the transfer. The major difference
>> is that one voluntarily signs away their rights to the dog with which
>> they will form an emotional bond, an investment that, in my opinion,
>> is far greater than any the program has in the dog.
>> Rather than the resolution limiting one's freedom of choice, it
>> actually enhances that freedom by allowing blind people to choose
>> what they feel is best for them and their dogs, rather than
>> subjugating them to the custodial policies and practices of a
>> training program that asserts they know what is best. How is such an
>> assertion congruent with the philosophy of self-determination held by the
National Federation of the blind?
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>> Thomas via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 11:28 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>>
>> Hello Everyone- I want to reiterate that I voted no on the
>> unconditional ownership resolution because of freedom of choice. As
>> I've said, there are schools in this country that offer unconditional
>> ownership and it is up to the consumer to decide what program suits
>> their needs the best. Now, I'll go back under my rock and work on
>> cagdu business. *smile* Have an awesome day everyone! Oh and for
>> those of us who are experiencing hot weather, stay cool and give you dogs
water.
>> Tina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion
>> Gwizdala via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 7:46 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>> Subject: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I think Susan's story is less about what happened 40 years ago and
>> more about what could potentially happen now if guide dog training
>> programs do not grant unconditional ownership upon completion of
>> training. When I sat on Southeastern Guide dogs' Graduate Advisory
>> Council, I was a lone voice advocating for ownership. Coincidentally,
>> I was the only officially appointed consumer representative. Though
>> most other members were affiliated with the ACB, none of them sat on
>> the GAC as an official representative of that organization. Those
>> affiliated with the ACB, especially one person, said "We don't want
>> to hear NFB rhetoric in these meetings!" Mike Sergeant quickly
>> intervened to say that my voice would be heard and asked some
>> questions about my stand. I was eventually able to help others
>> understand that my position was not a reflection of the current
>> administration of SEGDI but a desire to create sound, long-term
>> policies to protect consumers from interference should a less
>> responsive administration be seated in the future. During the
>> following meeting, the GAC proposed unconditional ownership upon
>> completion of training.
>>
>>
>> Only a few short years later, Mike Sergeant was dismissed and
>> consumers voiced their dissatisfaction with the decision. We
>> protested outside the gates of SEGDI and asked to be heard. SEGDI
>> called the Sheriff's office to make us leave; however, we were on
>> public property and could not be forced to disband. We have it on
>> excellent authority that SEGDI videorecorded the protest and created
>> a blacklist of those who expressed their dissatisfaction. I often
>> wonder what might have happened if we had not been given ownership of
>> our dogs.
>>
>> Though many opposed the resolution concerning ownership, I believe
>> the opposition was less about the terms of the resolution and more
>> about loyalty to those programs that do not grant such ownership.
>> Some argue that the program must have a good reason for their
>> policies, though the only reason we have been given is that their
>> donors want it. With all due respect, I don't believe the donors have
>> really weighed in on this nor that they have the understanding to
>> make such a decision. Others contend it is in the best interest of
>> the dog; however, those programs transferring ownership do have
>> processes available to them to protect the dogs from abuse or neglect
>> without reserving such power and influence over their consumers'
>> lives.
>>
>> I believe the resolution will come up again and, when it does, it
>> will pass. For the time, though, there are more important issues with
>> which NAGDU is focused. Also, we will be more apt to make our
>> membership aware of the instances in which training programs insert
>> themselves without just cause. I do believe, though, there will
>> always be those who will assert there must be a good reason and
>> defend the paternalistic attitudes of the training programs.
>>
>> We would like the programs to comply with our requests for new
>> policies and will continue to advocate for such policy changes. We
>> will also continue to educate our members about how such policies are
>> incongruent with our philosophy and overcome the objections raised.
>> Lastly, we will continue to press those who have publicly stated they
>> are willing to discuss these policies but privately tell us they have
>> no interest in doing so. Such was the case when Christine Benninger,
>> Executive Director of Guide Dogs for the Blind stated during our 2014
>> meeting she would discuss this with us. When I spoke with her on the
>> telephone, she told me GDB had no desire to discuss this with us and
>> no intention to change their policy. Such unprincipled behavior
>> demonstrates lack of integrity and is cause for concern.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>> Phillips via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 8:44 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users;
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Just a thought about names. If I went to a great restaurant, but it
>> was forty years ago, I probably wouldn't share the name, because 1.
>> the restaurant might not even be there. 2. If the restaurant still
>> exists, it might not be the same great place.
>> So why would I share a bad experience with an instructor that I had
>> forty years ago? I admit that I have done so, but hopefully not
>> publicly as in email. If I have, I apologize. It's not fair
>> to that person. Debby and Nova
>>
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>
>
> --
> Danielle
>
> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
>
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