[nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?

Aleeha Dudley blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com
Tue Aug 25 22:59:18 UTC 2015


Absolutely. This is exactly why I spoke in favor of the resolution at convention. I believe that the policies of the schools that do not grant immediate and unconditional ownership upon graduation are paternalistic and in direct contradiction of NFB philosophy. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2015, at 6:39 PM, Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
> 
> I agree. However, the issue still remains that as a social action
> organization should we not be committed to bringing about positive change at
> all schools? 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha Dudley via
> nagdu
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 3:01 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
> 
> I think what she meant was that we have a choice to go to whichever school
> we choose. This means that if we want ownership, we should go to a school
> that offers it. While I do not agree with this sentiment, I do believe that
> that was the meaning behind the message. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Danielle Ledet via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Marian,  agree with regards to Sandra's story. OMG, that the GDB 
>> representative would publicly state that at convention and then, 
>> totally back out one-on-one over the phone! I wonder if Mike was 
>> dismissed for allowing your voice to be heard? I think tina meant that 
>> it was her choice to vote either way on the resolution.
>> 
>>> On 8/25/15, Sherry Gomes via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I wonder why the schools that don't give ownership immediately seem 
>>> to think that a blind person is more likely to abuse, neglect or 
>>> misuse a dog than a sighted person who goes down to the humane 
>>> society, fills out a few papers and walks off with a new pet. T me, 
>>> that's what conditional ownership implies. We don't trust you to take 
>>> care of your dog in the best way, so we're going to withhold 
>>> ownership until we decide you are worthy. And yes, I have gotten all 
>>> my dogs from GDB, so I attend a school with conditional ownership. 
>>> and I don't like it. I have other reasons for going to GDB, but I 
>>> don't like their ownership policy and have been trying to get on 
>>> their alumni board, specifically so I can try to argue for a policy 
>>> change. Not that I really think it will do any good.
>>> 
>>> Sherry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
>>> Hingson via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:06 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Michael Hingson; 'Tina Thomas'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>> 
>>> Actually Tina,
>>> 
>>> There is more than one school in each of those countries. However, 
>>> people from both of those lands have traveled to the U.S. as well as 
>>> other countries to get their guide dogs.
>>> 
>>> The freedom of choice issue notwithstanding the schools offering 
>>> conditional ownership and/or no ownership continue to hold in one 
>>> form or another to old ideas of guide dog ownership and the 
>>> "obligations" of the schools. You are right that they don't get on 
>>> board, but that is because they don't want to and often this is 
>>> because they do not value blind people the way we do.
>>> While they might deny this their arguments are the same ones we have 
>>> heard many times before.
>>> 
>>> Let's turn it around. You receive your guide dogs from a school that 
>>> does and always has granted ownership right from the start. You see 
>>> the value of this. Why are you not fighting harder to insure that all 
>>> guide dog users who go to all guide dog schools here get the same 
>>> opportunity? Isn't that what the fight for civil rights is all about?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best Regards,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Michael Hingson
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina 
>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 12:51 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>> 
>>> Marion- If my argument of freedom of choice is as thin as you make it 
>>> out to be, then why haven't the schools who have conditional 
>>> ownership got on board with you and others on this list way of 
>>> thinking. Also, in the UK and South Korea there is only one guide dog 
>>> school covering those respective countries and the consumer's 
>>> residing there either adhere to the policies of those schools or they 
>>> don't get a dog.
>>> Tina
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion 
>>> Gwizdala via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:55 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>>> Subject: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>> 
>>> Tina,
>>> 
>>>   I know you assert you voted against the resolution on the grounds 
>>> of freedom of choice. I am confused, though, on what choice of the 
>>> consumer is limited by affording unconditional ownership upon completion
> of training.
>>> Is
>>> it the choice to be protected from unwarranted interference by the 
>>> training program? Is it the choice to have the dog removed 
>>> arbitrarily and without cause? Is it the choice to be fearful that 
>>> the program might get a call from someone who decides to retaliate 
>>> against and individual by filing a false report of abuse? Is it the 
>>> choice of being hesitant to contact the training program to seek 
>>> assistance on a behavioral or safety issue because the program may 
>>> think the user is incompetent and might take the dog away from them? 
>>> Can you please explain what freedom is impinged upon by transferring 
>>> unconditional ownership upon completion of training? Asserting that 
>>> ownership denies guide dog users freedom of choice seems illogical to me!
>>> 
>>>   I am of the opinion that providing ownership upon completion of 
>>> training does not compromise this freedom of choice; rather, it 
>>> enhances it.
>>> Let me give you a specific example from the agreement I have with the 
>>> guide dog training program from which I received Sergeant. I guess I 
>>> am a bit at fault for not reading the agreement more closely; 
>>> however, within the agreement, it states that I will not let anyone 
>>> else use my guide dog. I suppose writing this message could 
>>> compromise my relationship with GDF, but I am confident in my ability 
>>> to make choices about what is best for my guide dog and what are 
>>> acceptable practices.
>>> 
>>>   As many of you know, my wife, merry, is an experienced guide dog 
>>> user who is now between guide dogs. Last week she attended a business 
>>> function in an area in which she was unfamiliar. She asked me if she 
>>> could use Sarge for the day and I had no problem with that. Now, if 
>>> GDF wanted to, I guess they could say I breached their contract and 
>>> take my dog away from me; however, I also feel that, in the spirit of 
>>> ownership, I have the right to allow my wife to work my dog, if I 
>>> wish.
>>> 
>>>   Now, I suppose it could be argued that the resolution limits 
>>> freedom of choice by not giving consumers the option of owning their dog
> or not.
>>> If,
>>> as the training programs assert, there is no difference in the way 
>>> one is treated or the services offered during and after the 
>>> probationary period why do the programs still have such a 
>>> paternalistic policy? The answer came from the representative of 
>>> Leader dogs for the Blind during our panel discussion, and 
>>> explanation that, like the assertion of freedom of choice, is a 
>>> questionable explanation: The donors want it! Really? Are donors 
>>> really conditioning their support of a training program on this 
>>> policy or is it an explanation that sounds good but has no merit? I
> contend it is the latter.
>>> In fact, I would venture to guess that a vast majority of donors do 
>>> not even know what Leader's ownership policy is, let alone make 
>>> donation decisions based upon it!
>>>   Asserting that the resolution limits freedom of choice is that it 
>>> sounds good on the face of it but holds no water. Those programs that 
>>> transfer ownership upon completion of training offer no fewer 
>>> services than those who retain such ownership. Furthermore, those 
>>> programs that transfer ownership after a probationary period do not 
>>> offer any more limited services to their consumers once ownership is 
>>> transferred than they do prior to the transfer. The major difference 
>>> is that one voluntarily signs away their rights to the dog with which 
>>> they will form an emotional bond, an investment that, in my opinion, 
>>> is far greater than any the program has in the dog.
>>> Rather than the resolution limiting one's freedom of choice, it 
>>> actually enhances that freedom by allowing blind people to choose 
>>> what they feel is best for them and their dogs, rather than 
>>> subjugating them to the custodial policies and practices of a 
>>> training program that asserts they know what is best. How is such an 
>>> assertion congruent with the philosophy of self-determination held by the
> National Federation of the blind?
>>> 
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina 
>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 11:28 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>>> 
>>> Hello Everyone- I want to reiterate that I voted no on the 
>>> unconditional ownership resolution because of freedom of choice. As 
>>> I've said, there are schools in this country that offer unconditional 
>>> ownership and it is up to the consumer  to decide what program suits 
>>> their needs the best. Now, I'll go back under my rock and work on 
>>> cagdu business. *smile* Have an awesome day everyone! Oh and for 
>>> those of us who are experiencing hot weather, stay cool and give you dogs
> water.
>>> Tina
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion 
>>> Gwizdala via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 7:46 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>>   I think Susan's story is less about what happened 40 years ago and 
>>> more about what could potentially happen now if guide dog training 
>>> programs do not grant unconditional ownership upon completion of 
>>> training. When I sat on Southeastern Guide dogs' Graduate Advisory 
>>> Council, I was a lone voice advocating for ownership. Coincidentally, 
>>> I was the only officially appointed consumer representative. Though 
>>> most other members were affiliated with the ACB, none of them sat on 
>>> the GAC as an official representative of that organization. Those 
>>> affiliated with the ACB, especially one person, said "We don't want 
>>> to hear NFB rhetoric in these meetings!" Mike Sergeant quickly 
>>> intervened to say that my voice would be heard and asked some 
>>> questions about my stand. I was eventually able to help others 
>>> understand that my position was not a reflection of the current 
>>> administration of SEGDI but a desire to create sound, long-term 
>>> policies to protect consumers from interference should a less 
>>> responsive administration be seated in the future. During the 
>>> following meeting, the GAC proposed unconditional ownership upon 
>>> completion of training.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   Only a few short years later, Mike Sergeant was dismissed and 
>>> consumers voiced their dissatisfaction with the decision. We 
>>> protested outside the gates of SEGDI and asked to be heard. SEGDI 
>>> called the Sheriff's office to make us leave; however, we were on 
>>> public property and could not be forced to disband. We have it on 
>>> excellent authority that SEGDI videorecorded the protest and created 
>>> a blacklist of those who expressed their dissatisfaction. I often 
>>> wonder what might have happened if we had not been given ownership of 
>>> our dogs.
>>> 
>>>   Though many opposed the resolution concerning ownership, I believe 
>>> the opposition was less about the terms of the resolution and more 
>>> about loyalty to those programs that do not grant such ownership. 
>>> Some argue that the program must have a good reason for their 
>>> policies, though the only reason we have been given is that their 
>>> donors want it. With all due respect, I don't believe the donors have 
>>> really weighed in on this nor that they have the understanding to 
>>> make such a decision. Others contend it is in the best interest of 
>>> the dog; however, those programs transferring ownership do have 
>>> processes available to them to protect the dogs from abuse or neglect 
>>> without reserving such power and influence over their consumers'
>>> lives.
>>> 
>>>   I believe the resolution will come up again and, when it does, it 
>>> will pass. For the time, though, there are more important issues with 
>>> which NAGDU is focused. Also, we will be more apt to make our 
>>> membership aware of the instances in which training programs insert 
>>> themselves without just cause. I do believe, though, there will 
>>> always be those who will assert there must be a good reason and 
>>> defend the paternalistic attitudes of the training programs.
>>> 
>>>   We would like the programs to comply with our requests for new 
>>> policies and will continue to advocate for such policy changes. We 
>>> will also continue to educate our members about how such policies are 
>>> incongruent with our philosophy and overcome the objections raised. 
>>> Lastly, we will continue to press those who have publicly stated they 
>>> are willing to discuss these policies but privately tell us they have 
>>> no interest in doing so. Such was the case when Christine Benninger, 
>>> Executive Director of Guide Dogs for the Blind stated during our 2014 
>>> meeting she would discuss this with us. When I spoke with her on the 
>>> telephone, she told me GDB had no desire to discuss this with us and 
>>> no intention to change their policy. Such unprincipled behavior 
>>> demonstrates lack of integrity and is cause for concern.
>>> 
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby 
>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 8:44 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users; 
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>> 
>>> Just a thought about names.  If I went to a great restaurant, but it 
>>> was forty years ago, I probably wouldn't share the name, because 1.  
>>> the restaurant might not even be there.  2.  If the restaurant still 
>>> exists, it might not be the same great place.
>>> So why would I share a bad experience with an instructor that I had 
>>> forty years ago? I admit that I have done so, but hopefully not 
>>> publicly as in email.  If I have, I apologize.  It's not fair
>>> to that person.    Debby and Nova
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Danielle
>> 
>> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
>> 
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