[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

[David Andrews]

Raymond, I suspect we are closer in our views 
then your message implies to me.  I was not 
simply talking about "feel good" attitude 
adjustment.  Also I am sure it is possible that a 
Center could accomplish what it does for both 
cane and dog users, but some of the approaches would have to be different.

Dave

At 11:12 PM 8/29/2015, you wrote:
>Dave, If someone needs an attitude adjustment, 
>that person can visit a counselor, practice 
>meditation, participate in group therapy, etc. 
>The people I’ve known who have visited 
>training centers, including myself, attended one 
>out of a need or desire to gain and improve 
>independent living skills. In those sorts of 
>situations, it’s nice to have people to 
>empathize with, who you can sit down and chat 
>with, who understand what you’ve gone through 
>and the struggles you face as a blind person. 
>But ultimately, I’ve never known anyone who 
>went for the sake of being patted on the back 
>and told “It’s okay to be blind. You should 
>wear your disability loud and proud in the way 
>we think you should wear it, not in the way that 
>makes you feel most comfortable and accomplishes 
>the most for you.” Not to say that isn’t a 
>part of some people’s purpose for attending. 
>I’m sure it is for some. However, that is not 
>the case for all clients, and just as any 
>training is tailored according to a person’s 
>needs, learning speed, and learning style, I 
>don’t see why the training centers could not 
>tailor their training methods and practices for 
>the individual. blind pride is all good, but 
>people should still be taught to accomplish and 
>complete daily life tasks using the tools that 
>best meet their needs if those tools are 
>reasonably obtainable. When I was at the 
>Michigan training center, all the clients there 
>were and still are exposed to a variety of 
>technologies and allowed to trial them to figure 
>out which best suits their needs. Perhaps this 
>is not representative of training centers in 
>other states. If I own a guide dog, and a dog 
>best meets my needs while traveling, why does 
>anyone insist on me partaking in O&M training 
>that does not integrate my guide dog? I have 
>already been a cane user, and decided that 
>travel is enhanced with a guide dog by my side. 
>As a guide dog user, I am not ashamed to be 
>blind, and I have already decided that a cane is 
>an inadequate mobility aid, or at least does not 
>supersede what a dog can do as a mobility aid in 
>most situations. Even if I was ashamed of 
>demonstrating my blindness, or ashamed of what 
>the white cane signifies to the sighted public, 
>how does learning cane technique help me as a 
>guide dog traveler? Guide dog travelers don’t 
>need anyone at a training center to coach them 
>on using a guide dog. We’ve all spent at least 
>10-28 days receiving proper training with our 
>dogs. Why can’t an instructor simply teach 
>structured discovery without being a cane coach? 
>We can figure out how to use our dogs while the 
>instructor provides input and advice on basic 
>orientation. It is still possible to acquire 
>route information, explore, find landmarks, and 
>gain a sense of direction and location using 
>tactile and sound clues from the environment. It 
>just might not be the same tactile clues a cane 
>user would use, and it would definitely rely on 
>different methods than that of a cane user’s. 
>We don’t need to create a training center 
>specifically for guide dog users. The assertion 
>that such action should be taken is 
>discriminatory. Really! These centers are for 
>cane users and that one is for guide dog users. 
>We don’t accommodate your kind here, so you 
>can go over there with the rest of your kind. 
>Sounds like a million other prejudiced, 
>intolerant, insensitive, discriminatory, 
>devaluing battles that have been fought 
>throughout history. Seems like there are still 
>some kinks in the NFB philosophy. People have 
>complained about prejudices and discrimination 
>ever since the creation of woman and man. So we 
>talk about it because discussion brings about 
>change. This is a straight, wealthy, white, 
>able-bodied, right-handed man’s world. The 
>fewer of those demographics you fit in to, the 
>more discrimination you face, and the more you 
>are put down by society, no matter whether you 
>use a cane or a dog. Why is there a need to 
>promote and encourage further discrimination? 
>Interesting that discrimination is the thing we 
>fight, but even within minorities, there is 
>this, I’m a better insert demographic here 
>because of x reason. I’m a better black person 
>because I wear my hair in French braids rather 
>than wearing it straight like a white girl. 
>I’m a better woman than you because I can walk 
>up to the checkout counter with nothing but a 
>box of tampons and don’t need to hide it with 
>other groceries or go to the self checkout. 
>I’m a better man than you because I have a 
>hairy chest and hairy arms. I’m a better blind 
>person than you because I walk around with a 
>cane, the originale mobility aid, instead of a 
>dog. While we’re focusing on discrimination, 
>let’s work on the instances that occur within 
>our own community. -- Raven Founder of 1AM 
>Editing & Research www.1am-editing.com You are 
>valuable because of your potential, not because 
>of what you have or what you do. 
>Naturally-reared guide dogs 
>https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs >> 
>On Aug 29, 2015, at 10:32 PM, David Andrews via 
>nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> >> wrote: >> >> 
>Raymond: >> >> What I am about to say probably 
>won't go over well here.  Nevertheless, I >> 
>hope people will think about what I say. >> >> 
>Our three training centers and some others, 
>teach skills of blindness, >> like travel, 
>Braille and Technology, but they also teach us 
>how to accept >> our blindness, how to prosper 
>in a sighted world and other >> attitude-related 
>factors.  I think it was Jim Omvig who said they 
>are >> "attitude factories."  From my time at 
>the New Mexico Commission for the >> Blind, and 
>working near BLIND Inc., for over 20 years, I 
>would say this is >> true. >> >> Part of how 
>they do this is through travel with a 
>cane.  People are moved >> to using a cane, 
>having it at all times, accepting it, being 
>proud of it >> etc.  For most people this is 
>where the rubber meets the road in terms of >> 
>adjustment to blindness. >> >> Our Centers are 
>simply not just teaching skills and the cane is 
>an >> integral part of the process. >> >> Now, 
>could it also be done with a dog guide.  I don't 
>know -- I am not a >> dog user, so wouldn't 
>presume to say. I would think it might be 
>harder >> because you are using the dog to make 
>some decisions that a cane user >> makes.  Also, 
>the public has different attitudes about dogs 
>and canes, so >> don't know what a difference 
>this would make. >> >> Anyway, our current 
>centers do what they do in part through the 
>cane.  Let >> them do what they do well. >> >> 
>It seems to me that the service animal crowd 
>should come together and >> design a training 
>center that does good things using a dog. >> 
>People have complained about our Centers and 
>dogs for as long as we have >> had centers, and 
>these lists.  Do something about it! >> >> 
>Dave >> >> >> At 07:40 PM 8/29/2015, you 
>wrote: >>> This is ridiculous. Teaching me how 
>to travel better encompasses >>> teaching me to 
>use orientation skills in conjunction with a 
>guide dog >>> since that is my mobility aid of 
>choice. Better cane technique or cane >>> usage 
>for mobility does not help me as a guide dog 
>traveler. As guide >>> dog travelers, we are 
>required to assess our environment through 
>our >>> feet, hands, sound shadows, and cuing 
>our dogs to locate certain >>> landmarks. I 
>don't see how cane travel translates. >>> Cane 
>travel and guide dog travel are diametrically 
>different, as Julie >>> J described in a 
>previous post relating to Tom trying for a guide 
>dog. >>> If the training centers don't have 
>these differences in mind and >>> cannot adapt 
>lessons accordingly, I think this is incredibly 
>devaluing >>> and inconsiderate of handlers 
>relationships and use of their guide >>> 
>dogs. >>> >>> After I got a guide dog, I 
>received mobility training from an O&M >>> 
>instructor around the city that I lived in. How 
>useful would that >>> training have been to me 
>if she had said, "Even though you've got 
>your >>> dog, I'm gonna show you how to navigate 
>the city using your cane." >>> What kind of 
>sense does that make? The cane does things the 
>dog >>> doesn't, and vice versa. I have to use 
>certain techniques with my dog >>> that I never 
>had to with a cane, and vice versa. >>> I'm not 
>saying the training you'll receive will be 
>useless, but part >>> of it will be a waste, 
>considering there are important aspects of >>> 
>guide dog travel you could concentrate on 
>instead. >>> I understand that training centers 
>teach much more than O&M. But I've >>> stayed at 
>the training center here in Michigan, and the 
>O&M >>> instructors there are perfectly fine 
>with clients using their guide >>> dogs. In 
>fact, my instructor at the training center 
>recommended that I >>> apply to get a guide dog, 
>a long while before I even considered it as >>> 
>an option. >>> -- >>> Raven >>> Founder of 1AM 
>Editing & Research >>> 
>www.1am-editing.com >>> >>> You are valuable 
>because of your potential, not because of what 
>you >>> have or what you do. >>> >>> 
>Naturally-reared guide dogs >>> 
>https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs >>> 
>  >>> On 8/29/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu 
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote: >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > 
>I have not been to a center as a student, but I 
>serve on one of the >>> > center >>> > boards 
>and have talked to many people who have 
>participated in the >>> > programs. >>> > My 
>understanding is that centers will assist by 
>permitting you to >>> > leave >>> > your >>> > 
>dog in an office, possibly with staff, so the 
>dog will not be alone. >>> > Remember that the 
>reason, in part, for going to the centers is 
>to >>> > learn >>> > better travel techniques 
>which means developing better cane skills 
>as >>> > that >>> > is what the centers teach. 
>You WILL find this invaluable after your >>> > 
>time at >>> > the center. >>> > >>> > >>> > Best 
>Regards, >>> > >>> > >>> > Michael 
>Hingson >>> > >>> > -----Original 
>Message----- >>> > From: nagdu 
>[mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>Ashley >>> > Coleman >>> > via nagdu >>> > Sent: 
>Saturday, August 29, 2015 5:11 PM >>> > To: 
>NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of 
>Guide Dog Users >>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org> >>> > 
>Cc: Ashley Coleman <amc05111 at gmail.com> >>> > 
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training 
>centers >>> > >>> > Hi, I know that these 
>centers do a great job in regards to 
>teaching. >>> > Please >>> > make sure that your 
>dog get as much exercise as normal. Also, live 
>a >>> > radio >>> > or TV on so that your dog 
>has something calming to listen to. Check >>> > 
>with >>> > your trainers to find out when they 
>would like you to use a cane. >>> > 
>Honestly, >>> > I would rather work with my dog 
>than a cane. I would have a difficult >>> > 
>time >>> > leaving Landon behind in my room all 
>day. JMO. >>> > >>> > Ashley 
>Coleman, >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> On Aug 29, 
>2015, at 19:07, Aleeha Dudley via nagdu 
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> >>> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> 
>Hello all, >>> >> I will be attending the 
>Louisiana center for the blind in 
>September. >>> >> I >>> > know what their policy 
>on dogs is, but I would like to hear from 
>those >>> > who >>> > have attended centers with 
>your dogs. How was it? What can I do to >>> > 
>reduce >>> > the stress on my dog from being 
>left all day? >>> >> Thanks. >>> >> 
>Aleeha >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my 
>iPhone >> >>        David Andrews and long white 
>cane Harry. >> E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org

         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org