[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Sun Aug 30 18:07:22 UTC 2015

Raven,

	I would like to point out that all guide dog training programs worth their salt require applicants to demonstrate good O&M skills before being accepted for training with a guide dog. There are many reasons for this. First of all, good travel with a guide dog requires some prerequisite skills that are taught by O&M instruction. Most of the better guide dog teams I have encountered are good cane travelers, as well. Another point is that one will need to use a cane from time to time, as a guide dog is not always the best choice for mobility under certain circumstances. Without good cane travel skills, a guide dog user is not completely independent. 

	We had a panel of each of the NFB training programs discuss their centers and their policies concerning guide dogs. None of them were anti guide dog. I have heard from a number of our members who attended one of the NFB training programs with their guide dogs and none of them had anything negative to say about their experiences. I believe that, before one makes up their mind about a thing, it is good to get good information rather than simply say they don't like it for surface reasons.

Fraternally yours,
Marion

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 12:12 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Raven Tolliver
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Dave,
If someone needs an attitude adjustment, that person can visit a counselor, practice meditation, participate in group therapy, etc.
The people I’ve known who have visited training centers, including myself, attended one out of a need or desire to gain and improve independent living skills. In those sorts of situations, it’s nice to have people to empathize with, who you can sit down and chat with, who understand what you’ve gone through and the struggles you face as a blind person. But ultimately, I’ve never known anyone who went for the sake of being patted on the back and told “It’s okay to be blind. You should wear your disability loud and proud in the way we think you should wear it, not in the way that makes you feel most comfortable and accomplishes the most for you.”
Not to say that isn’t a part of some people’s purpose for attending.
I’m sure it is for some. However, that is not the case for all clients, and just as any training is tailored according to a person’s needs, learning speed, and learning style, I don’t see why the training centers could not tailor their training methods and practices for the individual.
blind pride is all good, but people should still be taught to accomplish and complete daily life tasks using the tools that best meet their needs if those tools are reasonably obtainable. When I was at the Michigan training center, all the clients there were and still are exposed to a variety of technologies and allowed to trial them to figure out which best suits their needs. Perhaps this is not representative of training centers in other states. If I own a guide dog, and a dog best meets my needs while traveling, why does anyone insist on me partaking in O&M training that does not integrate my guide dog? I have already been a cane user, and decided that travel is enhanced with a guide dog by my side.
As a guide dog user, I am not ashamed to be blind, and I have already decided that a cane is an inadequate mobility aid, or at least does not supersede what a dog can do as a mobility aid in most situations.
Even if I was ashamed of demonstrating my blindness, or ashamed of what the white cane signifies to the sighted public, how does learning cane technique help me as a guide dog traveler?

Guide dog travelers don’t need anyone at a training center to coach them on using a guide dog. We’ve all spent at least 10-28 days receiving proper training with our dogs. Why can’t an instructor simply teach structured discovery without being a cane coach? We can figure out how to use our dogs while the instructor provides input and advice on basic orientation. It is still possible to acquire route information, explore, find landmarks, and gain a sense of direction and location using tactile and sound clues from the environment. It just might not be the same tactile clues a cane user would use, and it would definitely rely on different methods than that of a cane user’s.

We don’t need to create a training center specifically for guide dog users. The assertion that such action should be taken is discriminatory. Really! These centers are for cane users and that one is for guide dog users. We don’t accommodate your kind here, so you can go over there with the rest of your kind. Sounds like a million other prejudiced, intolerant, insensitive, discriminatory, devaluing battles that have been fought throughout history. Seems like there are still some kinks in the NFB philosophy.

People have complained about prejudices and discrimination ever since the creation of woman and man. So we talk about it because discussion brings about change. This is a straight, wealthy, white, able-bodied, right-handed man’s world. The fewer of those demographics you fit in to, the more discrimination you face, and the more you are put down by society, no matter whether you use a cane or a dog. Why is there a need to promote and encourage further discrimination?

Interesting that discrimination is the thing we fight, but even within minorities, there is this, I’m a better insert demographic here because of x reason. I’m a better black person because I wear my hair in French braids rather than wearing it straight like a white girl.
I’m a better woman than you because I can walk up to the checkout counter with nothing but a box of tampons and don’t need to hide it with other groceries or go to the self checkout. I’m a better man than you because I have a hairy chest and hairy arms. I’m a better blind person than you because I walk around with a cane, the originale mobility aid, instead of a dog.
While we’re focusing on discrimination, let’s work on the instances that occur within our own community.
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

>> On Aug 29, 2015, at 10:32 PM, David Andrews via nagdu 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Raymond:
>>
>> What I am about to say probably won't go over well here.  
>> Nevertheless, I hope people will think about what I say.
>>
>> Our three training centers and some others, teach skills of 
>> blindness, like travel, Braille and Technology, but they also teach 
>> us how to accept our blindness, how to prosper in a sighted world and 
>> other attitude-related factors.  I think it was Jim Omvig who said 
>> they are "attitude factories."  From my time at the New Mexico 
>> Commission for the Blind, and working near BLIND Inc., for over 20 
>> years, I would say this is true.
>>
>> Part of how they do this is through travel with a cane.  People are 
>> moved to using a cane, having it at all times, accepting it, being 
>> proud of it etc.  For most people this is where the rubber meets the 
>> road in terms of adjustment to blindness.
>>
>> Our Centers are simply not just teaching skills and the cane is an 
>> integral part of the process.
>>
>> Now, could it also be done with a dog guide.  I don't know -- I am 
>> not a dog user, so wouldn't presume to say. I would think it might be 
>> harder because you are using the dog to make some decisions that a 
>> cane user makes.  Also, the public has different attitudes about dogs 
>> and canes, so don't know what a difference this would make.
>>
>> Anyway, our current centers do what they do in part through the cane.  
>> Let them do what they do well.
>>
>> It seems to me that the service animal crowd should come together and 
>> design a training center that does good things using a dog.
>> People have complained about our Centers and dogs for as long as we 
>> have had centers, and these lists.  Do something about it!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> At 07:40 PM 8/29/2015, you wrote:
>>> This is ridiculous. Teaching me how to travel better encompasses 
>>> teaching me to use orientation skills in conjunction with a guide 
>>> dog since that is my mobility aid of choice. Better cane technique 
>>> or cane usage for mobility does not help me as a guide dog traveler. 
>>> As guide dog travelers, we are required to assess our environment 
>>> through our feet, hands, sound shadows, and cuing our dogs to locate 
>>> certain landmarks. I don't see how cane travel translates.
>>> Cane travel and guide dog travel are diametrically different, as 
>>> Julie J described in a previous post relating to Tom trying for a guide dog.
>>> If the training centers don't have these differences in mind and 
>>> cannot adapt lessons accordingly, I think this is incredibly 
>>> devaluing and inconsiderate of handlers relationships and use of 
>>> their guide dogs.
>>>
>>> After I got a guide dog, I received mobility training from an O&M 
>>> instructor around the city that I lived in. How useful would that 
>>> training have been to me if she had said, "Even though you've got 
>>> your dog, I'm gonna show you how to navigate the city using your cane."
>>> What kind of sense does that make? The cane does things the dog 
>>> doesn't, and vice versa. I have to use certain techniques with my 
>>> dog that I never had to with a cane, and vice versa.
>>> I'm not saying the training you'll receive will be useless, but part 
>>> of it will be a waste, considering there are important aspects of 
>>> guide dog travel you could concentrate on instead.
>>> I understand that training centers teach much more than O&M. But 
>>> I've stayed at the training center here in Michigan, and the O&M 
>>> instructors there are perfectly fine with clients using their guide 
>>> dogs. In fact, my instructor at the training center recommended that 
>>> I apply to get a guide dog, a long while before I even considered it 
>>> as an option.
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>>> www.1am-editing.com
>>>
>>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you 
>>> have or what you do.
>>>
>>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>>>
>>> On 8/29/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > I have not been to a center as a student, but I serve on one of 
>>> > the center boards and have talked to many people who have 
>>> > participated in the programs.
>>> > My understanding is that centers will assist by permitting you to 
>>> > leave your dog in an office, possibly with staff, so the dog will 
>>> > not be alone.
>>> > Remember that the reason, in part, for going to the centers is to 
>>> > learn better travel techniques which means developing better cane 
>>> > skills as that is what the centers teach. You WILL find this 
>>> > invaluable after your time at the center.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Best Regards,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Michael Hingson
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley 
>>> > Coleman via nagdu
>>> > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 5:11 PM
>>> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>> > Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Cc: Ashley Coleman <amc05111 at gmail.com>
>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>> >
>>> > Hi, I know that these centers do a great job in regards to teaching.
>>> > Please
>>> > make sure that your dog get as much exercise as normal. Also, live 
>>> > a radio or TV on so that your dog has something calming to listen 
>>> > to. Check with your trainers to find out when they would like you 
>>> > to use a cane.
>>> > Honestly,
>>> > I would rather work with my dog than a cane. I would have a 
>>> > difficult time leaving Landon behind in my room all day. JMO.
>>> >
>>> > Ashley Coleman,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> On Aug 29, 2015, at 19:07, Aleeha Dudley via nagdu 
>>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hello all,
>>> >> I will be attending the Louisiana center for the blind in September.
>>> >> I
>>> > know what their policy on dogs is, but I would like to hear from 
>>> > those who have attended centers with your dogs. How was it? What 
>>> > can I do to reduce the stress on my dog from being left all day?
>>> >> Thanks.
>>> >> Aleeha
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>        David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
>> E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org

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