[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

[starmy22 at gmail.com]

Hi,
I've had mobility training all through school.
I had also gone down to the Michigan Blind Training Center and I had 
received Mobility training there too.
I've never been to any of the NFB centers.
The Michigan Blind Commission won't pay for me to go down there because they 
probably don't know what they are.

The commission will not send a mobility instructer out where I live to 
examinemy mobility skills to see whether or not if I'm even ready for a dog 
right now.
I have talked with my counselar about it and he said to me; "since you've 
done a real good job with submitting your job logs, I will see what I can do 
about you getting more Mobility training".  So far, nothing has been done 
about it.
I do apologize if I have gone off-topic.
here is my email address if anyone would like to email me off list.
jmtsanders at comcast.net
I do apologize for venting.
I hope to hear from you soon.
Sincerely,
John Sanders



-----Original Message----- 
From: David Andrews via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 2:55 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: David Andrews
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Julie:

Thank you.  As always what you say makes sense.

While many people won't agree with me, probably, I think that some
dog users got their dogs because they had not had good cane training,
and don't know what else to do.


Dave


At 06:55 AM 8/30/2015, you wrote:
>Raven,
>
>A few thoughts...
>
>First I do not believe that guide dogs and canes are diametrically opposed, 
>as you previously asserted I said.  I believe they are different, but that 
>many of the skills are similar or overlapping.  I believe that orientation 
>skills are the much, much larger part of orientation and mobility training. 
>Folks learn to use a guide dog for mobility in less than a month.  I also 
>believe that you can learn to use a cane strictly for mobility in that 
>time. However the larger orientation skills take months and months to learn 
>and master.
>
>I've said before that it is preferable to learn orientation skills while 
>using a cane.  This is because it causes you to learn without confusing a 
>dog or inadvertently relying on input from the dog.  Here's an 
>example...early in O&M training here at our center, people learn the skill 
>of identifying where the door out of a room is, even if they are the only 
>person in the room.   This skill is the predecessor to more advanced skills 
>like mall travel where you need to be able to recognize when you pass a 
>certain store or leave one area of the mall for another and the like when 
>there is no distinct doorway.  Here's the thing though, if you are a dog 
>user, even if you do not cue the dog to find the door, it is going to be 
>the obvious thing and they are going to suggest it.  The person may never 
>pick up on the subtle indications of where that door is.  They don't learn 
>that base skill to be able to build on it later and perhaps later the dog 
>doesn't know which way to go in the mall because there is no obvious 
>choice. Because the person hasn't learned to recognize other clues in the 
>environment, they don't know how to direct the dog.
>
>Raven, you seem to have very good O&M skills.  For you it may make little 
>difference if you went through center training with a cane or dog, but 
>having worked at a center, I can absolutely tell you that the huge majority 
>of people are not like you.  They are attending the center training because 
>they need to better their skills, all of their skills.    We do have people 
>attend our center with their guide dog.  Here they work their dog in their 
>free time, before and after classes and at the lunch break.  As the 
>training progresses, the dog is incorporated into travel class and other 
>times.  By the very end of training, the person will be back to working the 
>dog the majority of the time.
>
>We all know that dogs get sick,  tragic things happen and eventually the 
>dog will need to retire.  For about 99.9% of us this means using a cane 
>when the dog is unavailable.   It's unrealistic to think that someone will 
>be able to work their dog 100% of the time for the person's entire 
>lifetime.   So if you don't have decent cane skills this means you are 
>going to need a human guide, put your life on hold or have two dogs at all 
>times. Seems to me having learned to use a cane would be a good base skill 
>to have.
>
>I know that all of the programs have requirements about being able to use a 
>cane or show that you have good O&M skills.  But let's be brutally honest 
>with ourselves for a minute,  we all know that what passes for good O&M 
>skills varies widely from program to program.  I also cannot begin to count 
>the number of stories I have heard from people who attended a program and 
>had classmates who couldn't find their way around without significant help. 
>To me it's pretty clear that folks with guide dogs do not all have good 
>orientation skills.  Perhaps we could work with the guide dog programs to 
>help them better understand the importance of acquiring good orientation 
>training before getting a dog.
>
>You made the argument that a dog is your preferred mobility tool and the 
>center programs should support that decision.  I think they do, but that 
>they also recognize that a dog is a mobility tool and that there is more to 
>independent travel than mobility.    What if a person went to a center and 
>said they use GPS, so they don't need to learn orientation skills?  that 
>would be silly and no one would think that a good idea.  GPS only goes so 
>far in getting you where you want to go.  It doesn't tell you when it's 
>safe to cross the street, when there are stairs, when there's road 
>construction or when a kid has parked his bike across the sidewalk.  If 
>someone went to a center and said they didn't need to learn to use the 
>stovetop because they were going to eat microwave dinners for the rest of 
>their life, no one would think that a good idea either.   The centers 
>recognize that personal independence through skill training includes a wide 
>variety of skills.  It means moving out of your comfort zone and learning 
>new things.  Perhaps there are people who only use the microwave to cook, 
>but the point is that after center training that's a choice, not a 
>necessity.  To me that's what it's really about, having the choice to pick 
>from a wide variety of skills to find the one that best fits the particular 
>situation I find myself in.
>
>Julie
>
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         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org


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