[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Mon Aug 31 04:46:10 UTC 2015

Hi all,

I have tossed around the idea of going to an NFB training center from
time to time.  I am quite interested in Aleeha's experience at LCB and
look forward to hearing about her progress and how things go with her
dog.

As for the discussion that has evolved here, I see both sides of the
coin.  Walking before running aside, there are cues we take from our
dog that we don't even realize.  How about that person standing behind
you that your dog senses before you?  What about the way your dog
not-so-subtly refuses to move when you insist on walking into
something to which you have been warned by him?  And then there are
all the things in the environment we miss (a plus for most of us).
Working with a dog is hard work, responsibility, and requires a lot of
skill, intelligence, and patience, but in the end we receive that
bond.  I don't think we even realize how much we function in that bond
until it's gone or it changes.  As the queen of second dog syndrome
here, I can tell you that the bond we cultivate with our dogs allows
us to pick up on things we don't even realize.

The NFB centers teach training under sleep shades.  This means that
all students wear sleep shades (no vision at all!) all day long.  I
have a useful amount of vision that helps me travel.  I do not work my
dog ignoring the sight I have, though I probably should.  If I went
for training, I think it might be nice to go back to square one at
first with the cane as I get used to sleep shades.  I doubt I will
want to handle an energetic dog in a new environment, who will
undoubtedly try to take advantage of me.  Can you imagine the
disaster?  So yeah, it might be easier and less stressful to take the
dog out of the equation for a while.

But after I have gotten used to my surroundings and shown progress in
my cane travel skills, I would expect to be able to spend time working
my dog.  After all, I chose to get a dog at age 17, and I have never
looked back.  I love dogs, enjoy working them, and would much rather
travel not hitting everything I encounter.  I would wish that as part
of the center individual learning experience that I would get to work
on some routes with my dog under sleep shades.  After all, wouldn't I
be a better guide dog traveler if I learned not to rely on my vision
for navigation?  And the experience of not relying on that vision
would certainly be different with a dog than a cane, so I would prefer
adjusting to this difference with an instructor by my side who can
advise (even if not on the dog training aspects).

I really do believe that independence means learning to embrace the
tools you have so that nothing keeps you from living the way you want.
We have so many tools at our disposal--some are more appropriate than
others at different times.  But as we, the adult blind, must
eventually guide ourselves down our own paths to independence, we need
to be responsible for the choices we make and the tools we use.  If
this means working a guide dog the majority of the time, then we
should be the best darn dog users we know how to be, and the training
centers should embrace and enhance this choice.

On 8/30/15, Sheila Leigland via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I'm in agreement with you Raven when I went to hellen Keller national
> center, I was allowed to use my guide dog at all times because he was my
> choice of a mobility aid. I wasn't the only guide dog user there and
> some of the staff were dog users as well. My choice was respected and I
> appreciate that.
>
> On 8/30/2015 9:45 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu wrote:
>> Michael,
>> I disagree with your point that NFB training centers are not
>> discriminating because guide dog travelers in attendance know they're
>> required to use a cane during class time.
>> I have signed up for various classes, projects, and jobs, knowing I
>> would not be able to do or would not be comfortable performing
>> everything that was expected/requiredfrom other students, team
>> members, and employees. Fortunately, those classes, jobs, and projects
>> were tailored to my specific concerns, needs and abilities.
>> I understand there is a difference between what I am physically unable
>> to do and what I personally prefer not to do. But my point is that
>> signing up for a certain event, job, project, program does not require
>> or imply that you are accepting of or desire to partake in every
>> aspect. For instance, part of my job entails things like putting
>> ointment in dog’s eyes and clipping nails. I’m not doing either of
>> those things. I have a vague understanding of how to do it, but I
>> still prefer not to. When my boss asked me to do it, I said no. He
>> advised me to try to learn and that the vet techs could show me
>> because they’ve shown clients how to. While grateful, I turned down
>> the opportunity. That is my choice based on my personal preference and
>> comfort level, and my boss respects that.
>>
>> Julie,
>> I am a relatively good traveler now. However, when I attended the
>> Michigan training center, I was learning travel skills and I was not a
>> dog user at the time. If I had been, I would have been fine because
>> the Michigan training center doesn’t restrict guide dog travelers’ use
>> of their guide dogs. If I had chosen a different training center for
>> whatever reason, I would have insisted on using my dog. After all, you
>> cannot adequately teach me how to apply O&M skills without
>> incorporating my dog into the mix because a part of my daily use of
>> O&M includes using a guide dog.
>> I understand that people do not use their guide dogs all the time, and
>> there are certain circumstances where it is not convenient,
>> appropriate, or preferable for the handler. As you and others have
>> already stated, guide dog handlers who attend training programs are
>> required to have basic O&M and cane skills. Concerning how poor or
>> excellent someone’s orientation skills are, I am not opposed to guide
>> dog travelers using a cane in these institutions if it has been
>> assessed that they are inadequate cane users or have poor O&M skills.
>> But everyone does not need to start from square one since everyone
>> has varying levels of skills and abilities. This adds to my point that
>> training centers should teach lessons appropriate for the learning
>> speed and learning style for the individual student.
>> When I’ve received training for volunteer positions and employment
>> positions, I was not trained at the same rate or in the same way as
>> others every step of the way because of my individual level of
>> knowledge and experience. Why can’t the training centers take these
>> factors into consideration when it comes to O&M?
>>
>> If someone thinks they don’t need O&M skills because they rely on the
>> GPS, that’s a bit different from what I’m talking about here. I am not
>> saying guide dog users should not use canes simply because they prefer
>> not to. I am saying an assessment of skills should be in order to see
>> whether a client should use a cane or dog out of the gate for their
>> first set of lessons if that person arrives as a guide dog traveler.
>> And even if I arrive as an O&M rookie, it still is not right to not
>> incorporate the dog at all. I have a dog, so show me how to apply what
>> you’ve taught me while working a guide dog.
>>
>> Marion,
>> I don’t believe that any training center would admit that the staff
>> there are anti-guide dog. But their actions speak quite clearly that
>> they are profoundly ignorant and insensitive of the relationship
>> between dog and handler, and how hours spent with someone other than
>> the handler for an extended period of time could result in damage to
>> the bond and working relationship between dog and handler.
>> Believe me, I am very familiar with the guide dog policy at the NFB
>> training centers, as I have had friends who have attended these
>> institutions. To teach mobility to an individual without incorporating
>> their preferred mobility or orientation tool is ignorant,
>> inconsiderate, and inadequate training.
>>
>> Dave,
>> I’m not sure how many guide dog travelers you roll with on a regular
>> basis. But most of us don’t get dogs because we have lackluster cane
>> technique and O&M skills. Most of us get dogs because we find that a
>> dog is a better mobility aid. Do a lot of guide dog users dislike the
>> cane? Sure? But a lot of us are excellent cane users. I can see how
>> people who think the cane is superior would not acknowledge that.
>>
>> I know many are hesitant to believe that their beloved NFB is even
>> capable of being so discriminatory and restricting of freedom, but
>> yes, the training centers demonstrate this quite clearly. But of
>> course, guide dog travelers should just suck it up because they expect
>> us to and the overall training is worth it. I really don't think this
>> would fly anywhere else. I mean, you're pretty much saying you won't
>> accommodate me with my guide dog outside of a certain time frame. Are
>> these private institutions? I mean, do the centers only permit certain
>> individuals to enter, or is it also accessible by the general public?
>> Because if they're not private, I don't see how this practice is even
>> legal.
>
>
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-- 
Julie McGinnity
National Federation of the Blind of Missouri second vice president,
National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President
graduate, Guiding Eyes for the Blind 2008, 2014
"For we walk by faith, not by sight"
2 Cor. 7