[nagdu] ownership

Sat Jul 11 10:22:32 UTC 2015

The people who say ownership doesn't matter are opposed to ownership
because they have bought into the stories of schools rescuing
overweight dogs, and believe that the schools are the voice for our
dogs, not us. They believe the schools are supposedly some objective
party that keeps us in line when it comes to canine care.

Ownership matters. The person who says it doesn't hasn't had a dog
unjustly taken away from them, hasn't been threatened by the program
they attended, hasn't broken the rules of the contract they signed, or
hasn't known someone who wrongfully had their dog removed from their
possession, or who had their dog removed from their possession under
false pretenses. If you have but you still say ownership doesn't
matter, I have no words for you.

There was a time when I thought ownership didn't matter, too. But I
was very new to the guide dog handler community, and had not yet heard
the testimonies and stories. People having their dogs taken away
because their dog was sick, or the school suggesting that the dog be
returned because it's had too many ear infections, or schools
repossessing dogs by claiming they want to bring it in for brush-up
training, only to withhold the dog from the client's possession
permanently.
And now that I actually work for a guide dog school, I get to here
trainers and employees talk about this, ... with no remorse. It's all
ra-ra what the school thinks, and just disregard the client's feelings
about repossessing the dog. Yes, the dog was overweight. Yes, they
admitted that they feed it table scraps. So what? Rather than ripping
the dog from them, how about educating them? How about sending a
trainer or field rep their to talk to the family about why being
overweight is damaging? How about discussing appropriate treats? How
about discussing how feeding table scraps encourages undesirable
behavior and can cause health problems? Nope. That didn't happen. The
school just said they need to bring the dog in for brush-up training,
and then they re-homed it with a different family. That's horrifying.
I care about all dogs' well-being. But I also think that people need
to be educated when they make mistakes or mess up. Start with the
least invasive measure, then progress to more aggressive courses of
action.

Now, let me say, I chose to attend a program that does not offer
ownership upon graduation. After 2 years, clients can file for
ownership, and only if they've submitted a Health & Work report for
those 2 years. While I am grateful for the help they've provided to me
post graduation, I don't owe anyone any information. They gave me the
dog, in a state of less-than stellar health, might I add, so it is my
responsibility to be concerned about his well-being. If schools were
really concerned about the dogs' well-being, they would do much more
for these dogs than they do, like not feeding the cheapest crap out
there, but that is just my opinion.
Frankly, I don't regret my choice in school considering GEB offers
support not provided by the schools who grant ownership upon
graduation. Of course, I don't think those schools do what GEB does to
acquire the money that they have, but that's a different topic.

I agree with Marilyn, the schools don't want our dogs back. However,
some schools are more apt to take your dog back than others. Some
schools will do their darnedest to work with you and try to make you
and the dog work out, and will only take the dog back if things really
aren't going well. And other schools will try to repossess your dog if
they've been to the vet too many times within the past 6 months.
Also, there will always be people who have guide dogs and should not,
whether that school gives ownership right away or not. There are some
people who have guide dogs, rarely use them, don't even like them, but
keep them for whatever reason, and in spite of reports from others,
the school leaves the dog in that person's possession.

So who should really decide when a dog should be taken back? I mean,
in the case of neglect, abuse, or decline in health, should it be the
school, client, or a third party who decides what happens to the dog?
Since the dogs are property in our possession, do we have a right to
continue with practices that are detrimental to the dog? And who is to
decide what is truly detrimental? Who is supposed to be the objective
voice of the dog? Who is to decide who truly has the dog's best
interests at heart? Should the schools be able to take a dog back at
will?
-- 
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
have or what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

On 7/10/15, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> If ownership isn't a big deal and the schools aren't going to take your dog
> anyway, then what difference  does it make to give ownership?  I mean if it
> truly makes no difference, then folks should be good with either ownership
> or not, but the people who say it's not a big deal are opposed to ownership.
> Can someone explain this to me?
>
> Julie
> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now
> available! Get the book here:
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marilyn tucci via nagdu
> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 6:04 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Marilyn tucci
> Subject: [nagdu] ownership
>
> Danielle well said. I am a Lion and we give donations to schools . We do
> a lot of fund raising to donate this money. Next year my local Lions
> club will be sponsoring another dog . I really don't know why everyone
> is making such  a big deal about ownership. The schools don't and won't
> take your dogs back unless you abuse it or neglect it. Believe me they
> don't want your dog. they just want the dog to guide you safely and have
> a good life with you until they retire. I have retired 3 dogs. GDF never
> gave me a problem . They were happy they were given to good homes. One
> dog I kept  even though I had a pet dogs and new guide dog..
> Marilyn and Anna
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 04:10 PM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu wrote:
>
>> There seems to be two main arguments why some people do not support
>> unconditional ownership:
>> 1. Guide dogs are a gift that blind people should feel gratitude for
>> and indebted to the school.
>> 2. Conditional ownership prevents mistreatment of the dog.
>>
>> I have never really understood the view that guide dogs are gifts from
>> the training programs. Yes, the trainers put a lot of time and money
>> into the dogs; however, it is their job which they are being paid to
>> complete. The money doesn't come from the school. The dogs are paid
>> for by public donations. If anything, guide dog users should feel
>> gratitude toward the puppy raisers and donors, the ones who have given
>> time and money to enable the dogs' training. Feeling gratitude however
>> does not mean that you owe anyone anything. When someone gives you a
>> gift, they expect you to appreciate their time and effort, but they
>> don't expect to be repaid.
>>
>> Retaining ownership of a dog will not prevent mistreatment by the
>> owner. This is part of the reason why their is a screening process, to
>> determine which applicants would make suitable handlers. At most, the
>> school can repossess a dog after an incident has already occurred. Of
>> course, an excessively overweight dog could be taken away from the
>> handler for example, but wouldn't it be more effective to emphasize
>> proper nutrition and identification of ideal body condition? As others
>> have pointed out though, local laws are already in place to remove
>> dogs from dangerous situations. Perhaps we could put more effort into
>> educating animal control on what is or is not appropriate treatment of
>> a service animal (which isn't too much different from a regular pet)
>> instead of promoting the practice of giving guide dog schools more
>> power than  is necessary.
>>
>> I chose to attend a school that offers unconditional ownership upon
>> graduation because I believe this should be the norm, not the
>> exception. I know GDF and TSE offer unconditional ownership and I
>> believe GDA and Freedom do as well.
>>
>>
>> Danielle, Thai, and Bonnie (GDF puppy in training)
>>
>> On 7/10/15, Jody Ianuzzi via nagdu  wrote:
>>> I find it very disturbing that the membership voted on resolutions that
>>> they
>>> didn't know anything about as with the guy dog ownership resolution and
>>> NAC.
>>> There needs to be more explanation at the time of the vote or preceding
>>> the
>>> convention.
>>>
>>> What guide dog schools offer ownership now?
>>>
>>> JODY thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."
>>> DOCTOR WHO (Tom Baker)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 12:20 PM, margo and isis via nagdu wrote:
>>>>
>>>> First of all, a resolution passed by our organization is policy. Second,
>>>> I don't understand why this didn't pass because NFB is always fiddling
>>>> with companies' and agencies' policies.  I do not understand why guide
>>>> dog
>>>> schools are put on pedestals higher than any other entity.  I also don't
>>>> understand why NFB members are so against unconditional ownership. In
>>>> NFB, we have high expectations of our capabilities but not passing this
>>>> resolution to me shows a lack of faith in blind people by many of our
>>>> own
>>>> membership.
>>>>
>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dyer
>>>> via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:27 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>
>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the resolution
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My understanding is
>>>> that the guide dog schools are independent entities. How does this
>>>> resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>
>>>> Curiously,
>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate. At
>>>>> least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where can I go
>>>>>> to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my thoughts on the
>>>>>> subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that I didn't know to be
>>>>>> able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>
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