[nagdu] ownership

margo and isis margo.downey at roadrunner.com
Sat Jul 11 20:44:42 UTC 2015


Jennifer, I am a Seeing Eye graduate and yes, Seeing Eye does have follow-up training.  However, they are not mandatory and you can call them and resolve the issue on the phone or they'll visit.  

Margo and Isis

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Woods via nagdu
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 4:19 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Jennifer Woods
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership

Debby,
Does Seeing Eye provide follow up training?

Thanks 
Jennifer 



On Jul 11, 2015, at 4:27 AM, Debby Phillips via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

Raven, you ask great questions. Personally I chose Seeing Eye because I like owning my dog, and am happy with the trading I have receive and only wish sometimes that I was closer to the school. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:22 AM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> The people who say ownership doesn't matter are opposed to ownership
> because they have bought into the stories of schools rescuing
> overweight dogs, and believe that the schools are the voice for our
> dogs, not us. They believe the schools are supposedly some objective
> party that keeps us in line when it comes to canine care.
> 
> Ownership matters. The person who says it doesn't hasn't had a dog
> unjustly taken away from them, hasn't been threatened by the program
> they attended, hasn't broken the rules of the contract they signed, or
> hasn't known someone who wrongfully had their dog removed from their
> possession, or who had their dog removed from their possession under
> false pretenses. If you have but you still say ownership doesn't
> matter, I have no words for you.
> 
> There was a time when I thought ownership didn't matter, too. But I
> was very new to the guide dog handler community, and had not yet heard
> the testimonies and stories. People having their dogs taken away
> because their dog was sick, or the school suggesting that the dog be
> returned because it's had too many ear infections, or schools
> repossessing dogs by claiming they want to bring it in for brush-up
> training, only to withhold the dog from the client's possession
> permanently.
> And now that I actually work for a guide dog school, I get to here
> trainers and employees talk about this, ... with no remorse. It's all
> ra-ra what the school thinks, and just disregard the client's feelings
> about repossessing the dog. Yes, the dog was overweight. Yes, they
> admitted that they feed it table scraps. So what? Rather than ripping
> the dog from them, how about educating them? How about sending a
> trainer or field rep their to talk to the family about why being
> overweight is damaging? How about discussing appropriate treats? How
> about discussing how feeding table scraps encourages undesirable
> behavior and can cause health problems? Nope. That didn't happen. The
> school just said they need to bring the dog in for brush-up training,
> and then they re-homed it with a different family. That's horrifying.
> I care about all dogs' well-being. But I also think that people need
> to be educated when they make mistakes or mess up. Start with the
> least invasive measure, then progress to more aggressive courses of
> action.
> 
> Now, let me say, I chose to attend a program that does not offer
> ownership upon graduation. After 2 years, clients can file for
> ownership, and only if they've submitted a Health & Work report for
> those 2 years. While I am grateful for the help they've provided to me
> post graduation, I don't owe anyone any information. They gave me the
> dog, in a state of less-than stellar health, might I add, so it is my
> responsibility to be concerned about his well-being. If schools were
> really concerned about the dogs' well-being, they would do much more
> for these dogs than they do, like not feeding the cheapest crap out
> there, but that is just my opinion.
> Frankly, I don't regret my choice in school considering GEB offers
> support not provided by the schools who grant ownership upon
> graduation. Of course, I don't think those schools do what GEB does to
> acquire the money that they have, but that's a different topic.
> 
> I agree with Marilyn, the schools don't want our dogs back. However,
> some schools are more apt to take your dog back than others. Some
> schools will do their darnedest to work with you and try to make you
> and the dog work out, and will only take the dog back if things really
> aren't going well. And other schools will try to repossess your dog if
> they've been to the vet too many times within the past 6 months.
> Also, there will always be people who have guide dogs and should not,
> whether that school gives ownership right away or not. There are some
> people who have guide dogs, rarely use them, don't even like them, but
> keep them for whatever reason, and in spite of reports from others,
> the school leaves the dog in that person's possession.
> 
> So who should really decide when a dog should be taken back? I mean,
> in the case of neglect, abuse, or decline in health, should it be the
> school, client, or a third party who decides what happens to the dog?
> Since the dogs are property in our possession, do we have a right to
> continue with practices that are detrimental to the dog? And who is to
> decide what is truly detrimental? Who is supposed to be the objective
> voice of the dog? Who is to decide who truly has the dog's best
> interests at heart? Should the schools be able to take a dog back at
> will?
> -- 
> Raven
> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
> www.1am-editing.com
> 
> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
> have or what you do.
> 
> Naturally-reared guide dogs
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
> 
>> On 7/10/15, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> If ownership isn't a big deal and the schools aren't going to take your dog
>> anyway, then what difference  does it make to give ownership?  I mean if it
>> truly makes no difference, then folks should be good with either ownership
>> or not, but the people who say it's not a big deal are opposed to ownership.
>> Can someone explain this to me?
>> 
>> Julie
>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now
>> available! Get the book here:
>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marilyn tucci via nagdu
>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 6:04 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Marilyn tucci
>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership
>> 
>> Danielle well said. I am a Lion and we give donations to schools . We do
>> a lot of fund raising to donate this money. Next year my local Lions
>> club will be sponsoring another dog . I really don't know why everyone
>> is making such  a big deal about ownership. The schools don't and won't
>> take your dogs back unless you abuse it or neglect it. Believe me they
>> don't want your dog. they just want the dog to guide you safely and have
>> a good life with you until they retire. I have retired 3 dogs. GDF never
>> gave me a problem . They were happy they were given to good homes. One
>> dog I kept  even though I had a pet dogs and new guide dog..
>> Marilyn and Anna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 04:10 PM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu wrote:
>>> 
>>> There seems to be two main arguments why some people do not support
>>> unconditional ownership:
>>> 1. Guide dogs are a gift that blind people should feel gratitude for
>>> and indebted to the school.
>>> 2. Conditional ownership prevents mistreatment of the dog.
>>> 
>>> I have never really understood the view that guide dogs are gifts from
>>> the training programs. Yes, the trainers put a lot of time and money
>>> into the dogs; however, it is their job which they are being paid to
>>> complete. The money doesn't come from the school. The dogs are paid
>>> for by public donations. If anything, guide dog users should feel
>>> gratitude toward the puppy raisers and donors, the ones who have given
>>> time and money to enable the dogs' training. Feeling gratitude however
>>> does not mean that you owe anyone anything. When someone gives you a
>>> gift, they expect you to appreciate their time and effort, but they
>>> don't expect to be repaid.
>>> 
>>> Retaining ownership of a dog will not prevent mistreatment by the
>>> owner. This is part of the reason why their is a screening process, to
>>> determine which applicants would make suitable handlers. At most, the
>>> school can repossess a dog after an incident has already occurred. Of
>>> course, an excessively overweight dog could be taken away from the
>>> handler for example, but wouldn't it be more effective to emphasize
>>> proper nutrition and identification of ideal body condition? As others
>>> have pointed out though, local laws are already in place to remove
>>> dogs from dangerous situations. Perhaps we could put more effort into
>>> educating animal control on what is or is not appropriate treatment of
>>> a service animal (which isn't too much different from a regular pet)
>>> instead of promoting the practice of giving guide dog schools more
>>> power than  is necessary.
>>> 
>>> I chose to attend a school that offers unconditional ownership upon
>>> graduation because I believe this should be the norm, not the
>>> exception. I know GDF and TSE offer unconditional ownership and I
>>> believe GDA and Freedom do as well.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Danielle, Thai, and Bonnie (GDF puppy in training)
>>> 
>>>> On 7/10/15, Jody Ianuzzi via nagdu  wrote:
>>>> I find it very disturbing that the membership voted on resolutions that
>>>> they
>>>> didn't know anything about as with the guy dog ownership resolution and
>>>> NAC.
>>>> There needs to be more explanation at the time of the vote or preceding
>>>> the
>>>> convention.
>>>> 
>>>> What guide dog schools offer ownership now?
>>>> 
>>>> JODY thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."
>>>> DOCTOR WHO (Tom Baker)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 12:20 PM, margo and isis via nagdu wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> First of all, a resolution passed by our organization is policy. Second,
>>>>> I don't understand why this didn't pass because NFB is always fiddling
>>>>> with companies' and agencies' policies.  I do not understand why guide
>>>>> dog
>>>>> schools are put on pedestals higher than any other entity.  I also don't
>>>>> understand why NFB members are so against unconditional ownership. In
>>>>> NFB, we have high expectations of our capabilities but not passing this
>>>>> resolution to me shows a lack of faith in blind people by many of our
>>>>> own
>>>>> membership.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dyer
>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:27 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the resolution
>>>>> better.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My understanding is
>>>>> that the guide dog schools are independent entities. How does this
>>>>> resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Curiously,
>>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate. At
>>>>>> least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where can I go
>>>>>>> to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my thoughts on the
>>>>>>> subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that I didn't know to be
>>>>>>> able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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