[nagdu] ownership

Sat Jul 11 23:52:43 UTC 2015

Yes,-Seeing Eye does do follow up. They try first to give some instruction and if that doesn't work, then they will schedule a visit. have to go now more later. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 11, 2015, at 4:19 PM, Jennifer Woods <jem4ever at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> Debby,
> Does Seeing Eye provide follow up training?
> 
> Thanks 
> Jennifer 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 11, 2015, at 4:27 AM, Debby Phillips via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Raven, you ask great questions. Personally I chose Seeing Eye because I like owning my dog, and am happy with the trading I have receive and only wish sometimes that I was closer to the school. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:22 AM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> The people who say ownership doesn't matter are opposed to ownership
>> because they have bought into the stories of schools rescuing
>> overweight dogs, and believe that the schools are the voice for our
>> dogs, not us. They believe the schools are supposedly some objective
>> party that keeps us in line when it comes to canine care.
>> 
>> Ownership matters. The person who says it doesn't hasn't had a dog
>> unjustly taken away from them, hasn't been threatened by the program
>> they attended, hasn't broken the rules of the contract they signed, or
>> hasn't known someone who wrongfully had their dog removed from their
>> possession, or who had their dog removed from their possession under
>> false pretenses. If you have but you still say ownership doesn't
>> matter, I have no words for you.
>> 
>> There was a time when I thought ownership didn't matter, too. But I
>> was very new to the guide dog handler community, and had not yet heard
>> the testimonies and stories. People having their dogs taken away
>> because their dog was sick, or the school suggesting that the dog be
>> returned because it's had too many ear infections, or schools
>> repossessing dogs by claiming they want to bring it in for brush-up
>> training, only to withhold the dog from the client's possession
>> permanently.
>> And now that I actually work for a guide dog school, I get to here
>> trainers and employees talk about this, ... with no remorse. It's all
>> ra-ra what the school thinks, and just disregard the client's feelings
>> about repossessing the dog. Yes, the dog was overweight. Yes, they
>> admitted that they feed it table scraps. So what? Rather than ripping
>> the dog from them, how about educating them? How about sending a
>> trainer or field rep their to talk to the family about why being
>> overweight is damaging? How about discussing appropriate treats? How
>> about discussing how feeding table scraps encourages undesirable
>> behavior and can cause health problems? Nope. That didn't happen. The
>> school just said they need to bring the dog in for brush-up training,
>> and then they re-homed it with a different family. That's horrifying.
>> I care about all dogs' well-being. But I also think that people need
>> to be educated when they make mistakes or mess up. Start with the
>> least invasive measure, then progress to more aggressive courses of
>> action.
>> 
>> Now, let me say, I chose to attend a program that does not offer
>> ownership upon graduation. After 2 years, clients can file for
>> ownership, and only if they've submitted a Health & Work report for
>> those 2 years. While I am grateful for the help they've provided to me
>> post graduation, I don't owe anyone any information. They gave me the
>> dog, in a state of less-than stellar health, might I add, so it is my
>> responsibility to be concerned about his well-being. If schools were
>> really concerned about the dogs' well-being, they would do much more
>> for these dogs than they do, like not feeding the cheapest crap out
>> there, but that is just my opinion.
>> Frankly, I don't regret my choice in school considering GEB offers
>> support not provided by the schools who grant ownership upon
>> graduation. Of course, I don't think those schools do what GEB does to
>> acquire the money that they have, but that's a different topic.
>> 
>> I agree with Marilyn, the schools don't want our dogs back. However,
>> some schools are more apt to take your dog back than others. Some
>> schools will do their darnedest to work with you and try to make you
>> and the dog work out, and will only take the dog back if things really
>> aren't going well. And other schools will try to repossess your dog if
>> they've been to the vet too many times within the past 6 months.
>> Also, there will always be people who have guide dogs and should not,
>> whether that school gives ownership right away or not. There are some
>> people who have guide dogs, rarely use them, don't even like them, but
>> keep them for whatever reason, and in spite of reports from others,
>> the school leaves the dog in that person's possession.
>> 
>> So who should really decide when a dog should be taken back? I mean,
>> in the case of neglect, abuse, or decline in health, should it be the
>> school, client, or a third party who decides what happens to the dog?
>> Since the dogs are property in our possession, do we have a right to
>> continue with practices that are detrimental to the dog? And who is to
>> decide what is truly detrimental? Who is supposed to be the objective
>> voice of the dog? Who is to decide who truly has the dog's best
>> interests at heart? Should the schools be able to take a dog back at
>> will?
>> -- 
>> Raven
>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>> www.1am-editing.com
>> 
>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
>> have or what you do.
>> 
>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>> 
>>> On 7/10/15, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> If ownership isn't a big deal and the schools aren't going to take your dog
>>> anyway, then what difference  does it make to give ownership?  I mean if it
>>> truly makes no difference, then folks should be good with either ownership
>>> or not, but the people who say it's not a big deal are opposed to ownership.
>>> Can someone explain this to me?
>>> 
>>> Julie
>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now
>>> available! Get the book here:
>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marilyn tucci via nagdu
>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 6:04 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Marilyn tucci
>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership
>>> 
>>> Danielle well said. I am a Lion and we give donations to schools . We do
>>> a lot of fund raising to donate this money. Next year my local Lions
>>> club will be sponsoring another dog . I really don't know why everyone
>>> is making such  a big deal about ownership. The schools don't and won't
>>> take your dogs back unless you abuse it or neglect it. Believe me they
>>> don't want your dog. they just want the dog to guide you safely and have
>>> a good life with you until they retire. I have retired 3 dogs. GDF never
>>> gave me a problem . They were happy they were given to good homes. One
>>> dog I kept  even though I had a pet dogs and new guide dog..
>>> Marilyn and Anna
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 04:10 PM, Danielle Sykora via nagdu wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> There seems to be two main arguments why some people do not support
>>>> unconditional ownership:
>>>> 1. Guide dogs are a gift that blind people should feel gratitude for
>>>> and indebted to the school.
>>>> 2. Conditional ownership prevents mistreatment of the dog.
>>>> 
>>>> I have never really understood the view that guide dogs are gifts from
>>>> the training programs. Yes, the trainers put a lot of time and money
>>>> into the dogs; however, it is their job which they are being paid to
>>>> complete. The money doesn't come from the school. The dogs are paid
>>>> for by public donations. If anything, guide dog users should feel
>>>> gratitude toward the puppy raisers and donors, the ones who have given
>>>> time and money to enable the dogs' training. Feeling gratitude however
>>>> does not mean that you owe anyone anything. When someone gives you a
>>>> gift, they expect you to appreciate their time and effort, but they
>>>> don't expect to be repaid.
>>>> 
>>>> Retaining ownership of a dog will not prevent mistreatment by the
>>>> owner. This is part of the reason why their is a screening process, to
>>>> determine which applicants would make suitable handlers. At most, the
>>>> school can repossess a dog after an incident has already occurred. Of
>>>> course, an excessively overweight dog could be taken away from the
>>>> handler for example, but wouldn't it be more effective to emphasize
>>>> proper nutrition and identification of ideal body condition? As others
>>>> have pointed out though, local laws are already in place to remove
>>>> dogs from dangerous situations. Perhaps we could put more effort into
>>>> educating animal control on what is or is not appropriate treatment of
>>>> a service animal (which isn't too much different from a regular pet)
>>>> instead of promoting the practice of giving guide dog schools more
>>>> power than  is necessary.
>>>> 
>>>> I chose to attend a school that offers unconditional ownership upon
>>>> graduation because I believe this should be the norm, not the
>>>> exception. I know GDF and TSE offer unconditional ownership and I
>>>> believe GDA and Freedom do as well.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Danielle, Thai, and Bonnie (GDF puppy in training)
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/10/15, Jody Ianuzzi via nagdu  wrote:
>>>>> I find it very disturbing that the membership voted on resolutions that
>>>>> they
>>>>> didn't know anything about as with the guy dog ownership resolution and
>>>>> NAC.
>>>>> There needs to be more explanation at the time of the vote or preceding
>>>>> the
>>>>> convention.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What guide dog schools offer ownership now?
>>>>> 
>>>>> JODY thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."
>>>>> DOCTOR WHO (Tom Baker)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 12:20 PM, margo and isis via nagdu wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> First of all, a resolution passed by our organization is policy. Second,
>>>>>> I don't understand why this didn't pass because NFB is always fiddling
>>>>>> with companies' and agencies' policies.  I do not understand why guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> schools are put on pedestals higher than any other entity.  I also don't
>>>>>> understand why NFB members are so against unconditional ownership. In
>>>>>> NFB, we have high expectations of our capabilities but not passing this
>>>>>> resolution to me shows a lack of faith in blind people by many of our
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> membership.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shannon Dyer
>>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:27 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the resolution
>>>>>> better.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My understanding is
>>>>>> that the guide dog schools are independent entities. How does this
>>>>>> resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Curiously,
>>>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate. At
>>>>>>> least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu  wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where can I go
>>>>>>>> to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my thoughts on the
>>>>>>>> subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that I didn't know to be
>>>>>>>> able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>> 
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