[nagdu] The NFB got vote correct on ownership.

Cindy Ray cindyray at gmail.com
Sun Jul 12 21:25:19 UTC 2015


I think I was thinking of "gift" categorically, not by what it implies
necessarily. I never thought of calling the dog a gift before really.
I feel no one should ever be criticized for their choice in dog training
schools, especially if they have meticulously researched and made the
decision. Ownership isn't the only qualification. I would say that informed
choice is the only choice. Beyond that it makes no difference if you have
chosen the school that you believe will best meet your needs. I think if we
attend a school and we cannot see its faults and don't make efforts to
change what we see as wrong, this is a problem and will not lead to better
schools.
Cindy Lou


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 4:04 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Michael Hingson
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The NFB got vote correct on ownership.

Hi,

My problem with the "gift" concept is that there are those who then say you
should be beholden to the organization that gave you the gift. While
gratitude is ok and, I believe we should feel it whenever we learn something
or someone does us a good kindness or provides us a service I do not think
that we should sacrifice our beliefs and principles for the service or
kindness or, if you will, gift.

I attend GDB to receive my guide dogs. They do not provide ownership for the
first year after you receive your guide dog. However, the reason I choose
GDB goes far beyond the ownership issue. I believe they provide the best and
possibly the most advanced training. GDB has been the leader in training and
guide dog research in general for years. This does not believe that I will
stop advocating for GDB to provide full unconditional ownership. I believe
GDB is totally wrong by not doing this.

I heard this week that there was at least one person who criticized me, not
to my face by the way, that I attended a school that did not provide
unconditional ownership. I would ask how many blind people use Uber although
we know they discriminate against guide dog users? How many use lift? How
many people visit and use federal government web sites even though most of
them are at least partially inaccessible?

No matter what, many of us do feel that all guide dog schools should provide
unconditional ownership right out of the gate. I also think many of those
who do not feel that way today are not aware of many of the issues and facts
about schools that took away guide dogs without provocation and such.

So, again, I believe the problem with calling guide dogs "gifts" is that an
underlying concept is creates a sense of gratitude that goes far beyond what
it should. I believe many guide dog schools play on this. 


Regards,


Michael Hingson

The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
nagdu
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 1:52 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The NFB got vote correct on ownership.

Why wouldn't you call a guide dog a gift? If not a gift, then what. I hadn't
ever thought of it that way before this week, but I am curious as to what
category it would fit into.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews via
nagdu
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 3:11 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: David Andrews
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The NFB got vote correct on ownership.

Michael:

I can't speak for other states, but here in Minnesota in blind rehab, we
generally transfer ownership for equipment and software to the client when
we deliver it to her.  Occasionally we don't, and we always haven't, but now
we do.  Other states would be governed by their own rules and policies.

Personally I would not call a guide dog, or equipment a gift, even though
the provider may pay for the majority of it.
Dave

At 02:08 PM 7/12/2015, you wrote:
>So here is another question: If we receive products from our state 
>rehab departments that we use to gain employment do we own them or does 
>the state? Can the state, for example, take away a Braille note it has 
>given to a client or does the client own it? I suspect that the state 
>could not come and take away a product or device it has given to a 
>client as part of her or his "rehabilitation". Regards, Michael Hingson 
>-----Original Message----- From: nagdu 
>[mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via nagdu
>Sent: Friday, July 10,
>2015 2:35 PM To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide 
>Dog Users Cc:
>Buddy Brannan Subject: Re: [nagdu] The NFB got vote correct on 
>ownership. So,would you also opine that, since blind people don't 
>privately pay for rehab training, say, from BISM, or an NFB center, or 
>the Helen Keller Institute (whose name I probably got wrong), or the 
>New York Lighthouse, low expectations are OK, because someone else is 
>footing the bill, and we should just be grateful to get what we get? If 
>not, why not, and what's the difference? Discuss. -- Buddy Brannan, 
>KB5ELV - Erie, PA Phone:
>814-860-3194 Mobile: 814-431-0962 Email: 
>buddy at brannan.name > On Jul 10, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Howard J. Levine via 
>nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote: > > Please understand I don't what 
>government or state paying for our guide dogs, in the united state 
>there are more then one schools and we have choices where we go for a 
>guide dog. What I was saying if want more control then be an owner 
>trained guide dog, if you want can aford to pay some one to train a dog 
>for you then you can and no one cantell you what you can do as long you 
>don't brak any local or state laws. When you go to school and some one 
>else is paying for guide dogs then you give up some fredom that is just 
>way it is in life. > > -----Original Message----- > From:
>nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Leye-Shprintse 
>íberg via nagdu >
>Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 3:44 PM > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the 
>National Association of Guide Dog Users > Cc: Leye-Shprintse íberg >
>Subject:
>Re: [nagdu] The NFB got vote correct on ownership. > > BS'D > > Howard,
>> > How would state (tax) funded guide dogs makes it more realistic
>with ownerships of the dogs for the handlers? (It's how I read your 
>comment about statefunded vs. charity funded guide dogs
>anyway.) > > In Sweden, our guide dogs are financed by the government
>(taxes) and we've no ownerships; we've a disposal right to our dogs; 
>and personally, I think it sucks. > > LeSholom, > Mlle Leye-Shprintse 
>íberg > Stockholm, Suède > leyeshprintse at ymail.com > 
>http://www.leyeshprintse.com > Envoyé de mon iPad > >> Le 10 juil.
>2015 Ã  15:13, Howard J.
>Levine via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> a écrit
>: >> >> Hi from Howard and guide dog Rhett, the NFB membership got it 
>correct on the >> question of ownership by the school. In the united 
>states we do not use >> public funds and the government does not 
>provide guide dogs to blind. The >> schools use private funds and they 
>answer to ones who give of there private >> funds. The ones who pay for 
>our guide dogs call the shops, it cost lot of >> money to provide guide 
>dogs.
>It cost about fifty thousand dollars to provide >> guide to blind 
>person. There is no free lunches in world when you get >> something for 
>free or little to no cost you give something up. If blind >> people 
>want respect then we need to come another way to fund cost of guide >> 
>dog teams in this country or just pull out your check book and pay for 
>guide >> dog if you want owner ship that how simple it is. Just look at 
>what is going >> on in Greece you can't have cake and eat it. Just look 
>at our health care >> system when it is free to all then you just get 
>crap. I don't care if I >> don't own my guide dog I am happy that there 
>are others who are willing to >> pay and lay out large anounts money so 
>I can have guide dog. Where would we >> be if there would not be others 
>willing to give funds so  we could have >> guide dogs free or little 
>cost. >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by 
>Avast antivirus software. >> http://www.avast.com >> 
>_______________________________________________ >> nagdu mailing list
>>>

         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org


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