[nagdu] Better screening?

Debby Phillips semisweetdebby at gmail.com
Mon Jul 13 14:17:42 UTC 2015 

Hi Tracy, at TSE, there is the team, plus Dave Johnson, and Pauline. So I think there are safeguard in place, not sure how other places do it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 13, 2015, at 6:53 AM, Tracy Carcione via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Better screening sounds good, but how could it be done?  Are there
> reliable psych tests, for example, or can such things mean whatever you
> want them to mean?
> People are in class for almost a month, and one would think the trainers
> could tell something, but I'm not sure.
> There was a first-timer in my last class who often spoke sharply to his
> dog, and often seemed to be lost.  Should he have been sent home?  Or are
> they OK, now they're in his home environment?  I don't know.
> What if the trainer just thinks the student is an idiot, or just doesn't
> like the student?  A team of people would have to make a decision like
> that.
> JMT.
> Tracy
> 
>> Mike,
>> 
>> The question is why do schools not trust their consumers? The schools say
>> they do not arbitrarily repossess dogs. They also say that they rarely
>> ever repossess a dog. If true then why does the care of the dog continue
>> to come up? Some on this list and the schools cannot have it both ways.
>> 
>> There is more than a home interview involved in passing ownership over to
>> a student/consumer. The instructors have all the time blind people are in
>> class to evaluate what they can expect from a graduate.
>> 
>> It still comes down to trust. Either school staff trust consumers or they
>> do not.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Forzano
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 10:26 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Michael Forzano
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> My only concern with the resolution was for the well-being of the dogs.
>> However, after reading this thread, I'm willing to give it consideration.
>> It seems that the argument is that better screening processes would
>> prevent dogs from being given to people who shouldn't have them. I talked
>> with one of the instructors from my school who felt that it is pretty easy
>> for a person to put on a good show for a 2-hour home interview. In
>> training, everything is supervised; you are told when to feed, park and
>> groom your dog, when to work your dog, etc. so there is likely little
>> opportunity to mistreat your dog unless you want to be sent home without
>> them. So what kinds of better screening processes would prevent dogs from
>> being given to handlers who would be likely to mistreat them?
>> 
>> I'm not against having high expectations for blind people, but this
>> mistreatment of dogs seems to be a real issue (see also the thread on
>> overweight dogs at convention). The schools breed, care for, and fund
>> (through donations) the training of these dogs, so it only makes sense
>> that they want them to be placed in good homes and utilized to their full
>> potential.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>>> On 7/11/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Cindy, write me offlist please! I may have friends you may have met.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy ray
>>> via nagdu
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:58 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Cindy ray
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>> 
>>> Maybe the restaurant is a bad analogy. The dogs are gifts. They are
>>> given on behalf of the donors. Your use of other gifts is not
>>> monitored, so why should this gift be?
>>> Also, there are always bad apples, but why should all be penalized? We
>>> need to trust ourselves more than that, too.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Marsha Drenth via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> As all topics on the list, this one will soon enough die. Everyone
>>>> needs to remember that we all have the right to express our opinion,
>>>> to agree and disagree about topics like ownership. So for those
>>>> people who have agreed with unconditional ownership, you have as much
>>>> of a right to say what you would like, as do the people who do not
>>>> agree. Just because you can't see the other side, doesn't mean it's not
>>>> right.
>>>> 
>>>> I too did not know about this resolution before getting to
>>>> convention, it would have been nice to discuss this before hand.
>>>> I would also like to say, this is my opinion and only my opinion, I
>>>> think that even within the nfb, there is a hierarchy of some people and
>>>> others.
>>>> I don't know why this is, but I think the two persons that spoke
>>>> against the resolution at convention, are not a part of nagdu and a
>>>> part of that higher elite. That is the way I see it at least.
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>> email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>> Please note that this email communication has been sent using my
>>>> iPhone.
>>>> As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to mitigate
>>>> errors. Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as
>>>> necessary.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Howard J. Levine via nagdu
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> You make no sence when you go to Restaurant you pay your food they
>>>>> don't give it you for free, and by way guide dog living thing. This
>>>>> subject is getting old.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d
>>>>> keeler via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:49 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Cc: larry d keeler
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well, like Burger King or McDonalds or Wendy's, the burgers are
>>>>> different but you own them after going there!
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of margo and
>>>>> isis via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:33 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Cc: margo and isis
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>> 
>>>>> Oh, I hope the conditional ownership programs decrease or change to
>>>>> unconditional ownership.  There is no valid reason, in my opinion,
>>>>> for schools not to allow unconditional ownership.  The Seeig Eye has
>>>>> done that since its inception and other schools have tried it and
>>>>> made it work.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>>>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:10 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello Everyone- I think it is important to remember that we as guide
>>>>> dog users have a choice of what training program we would like to
>>>>> attend. I don't want a one size fits all training program. Its like
>>>>> going to Burger
>>>>> King and excepting   to get a Big Mac. It is my belief that we as
>>>>> guide
>>>>> dog users need to educate each other as well as people looking to
>>>>> get a dog  on the different policies and practices of all of the
>>>>> training programs  so  that we can make an informed choice of which
>>>>> program fits our needs. Now if unconditional ownership is a deciding
>>>>> factor in one obtaining a dog, then apply to a program that grants
>>>>> it and the programs that have a conditional ownership policy will
>>>>> start to decrease in their numbers. As of the here and now, those
>>>>> programs who have conditional ownership policies don't have an
>>>>> incentive to change because of their numbers.
>>>>> Jmts.
>>>>> Tina
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 10:00 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is doubtful to me whether people will really change schools
>>>>> because of ownership. I think there are lots of folks who aren't
>>>>> users of guide dogs within MFB who do not understand the issues.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 10:59 AM, larry d keeler via nagdu
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well, until something happens to convince NFB to get on board, it
>>>>>> will certainly be wise to read your choice of schools contract. It
>>>>>> could make a difference if people start going to schools where
>>>>>> ownership is offered and stop going to schools who's contracts
>>>>>> don't offer it! Consumer choice!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:41 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Cc: Julie J.
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Shannon,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The resolution itself changes nothing at the guide dog schools.
>>>>>> The resolutions are used as guiding principles for the
>>>>>> organization.  A positive vote means that the organization will/can
>>>>>> actively pursue that goal.  a negative vote means little because
>>>>>> the goal can still be pursued, just not with the force of the entire
>>>>>> organization behind it.
>>>>>> Once a resolution is passed, the decentors are supposed to keep
>>>>>> their dissenting opinions to themselves and support the vote.
>>>>>> However a resolution that didn't pass means that the concept is
>>>>>> still up for debate or discussion.  A resolution that doesn't pass
>>>>>> isn't considered to be a policy or decision.  For example the
>>>>>> resolution we are discussing if passed would mean that the NFB
>>>>>> would actively work with the guide dog schools to provide
>>>>>> ownership.  since it didn't pass it means nothing.  It doesn't mean
>>>>>> that the NFB supports non ownership.  It means the issue is still
>>>>>> open and undecided. If folks wanted the NFB's position and support
>>>>>> to go to the idea of the schools retaining ownership, then a
>>>>>> resolution to that effect would have to be introduced and passed.
>>>>>> Perhaps the resolutions could be viewed as a priority list of
>>>>>> things the organization wants to accomplish.  At least this is the
>>>>>> way I have always understood resolutions.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog
>>>>>> is now available! Get the book here:
>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Shannon Dyer via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 9:26 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the
>>>>>> resolution better.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My
>>>>>> understanding is that the guide dog schools are independent
>>>>>> entities. How does this resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Curiously,
>>>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate.
>>>>>>> At least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well to be truthfully honest it never should've went to a rollcall
>>>>>>> states it was obvious that the nose had it but hey somebody just
>>>>>>> couldn't take the loss so they try to sneak it through by asking
>>>>>>> for a rollcall but thank God in the end democracy and justice
>>>>>>> prevailed
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where can
>>>>>>>> I go to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk
>>>>>>>> to the people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my
>>>>>>>> thoughts on the subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that
>>>>>>>> I didn't know to be able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>> 
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