[nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog programs' admission standards

[Cindy Ray]

Well, I have been trying to become a pastor in the Presbyterian Church for
too long to admit, but I can't because of one exam. In that church, there
are five tests you must pass to become a teaching elder or pastor. Although
I have some good pastoral skills, these tests are designed to keep out the
people who wouldn't. I cannot get in. There are going to be people who would
not make it because of the kind of sytandards considered even though they
would have been good. I wonder that they might need additional work. In my
first class there was someone who didn't even understand the basics of when
to tell if the light is green and much of our time was spent with the
instructor trying to teach her that. I think that a person should have that
kind of skills. Later on I know that some people have been told to go
improve their mobility skills before they can have a dog. Then after a few
months, maybe a year, they are accepted because they have done it. I am not
sure your mobility skills have to be exemplary, but you might ought to have
some.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 8:14 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Tracy Carcione
Subject: Re: [nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog programs'
admission standards

But Raven, you did graduate, and you did well.  I understand the idea that
people should have good travel skills before getting a dog, but I've known
enough who didn't and still have done very well with a dog that I'm not sure
it should be a hard and fast rule.  Yes, it helps a lot, but it doesn't seem
to be absolutely essential. Basic traffic-reading yes, but great orientation
and walking straight, maybe not.
I think more instructors are getting degrees in O&M.  I know TSE has a few,
and so does GDB.  Leader too, I think.  I agree, it is helpful.

My TSE Juno, I called the crossings.  In class, my trainer, ex-GEB, did
advise us when to cross in the beginning, a bit, on quiet streets where we
weren't sure of the traffic patterns.  "Is this a stop sign, or a light...?"

As to being served meals, I agree.  I wouldn't want to deal with carrying
food the first day or 2 with the new, very excited dog, but after that, why
not?
At TSE, we come and go from the dining room as we please, though instructors
direct traffic a bit when everyone is coming in.  "Hold up a minute; we've
got a traffic jam (or Kathy is reworking a clearance, or whatever).  The
students' section is past the staff section, so a student has to walk past
staff tables to get out.  More than once I was reminded to watch Krokus's
big nose, walking past those tables.
Tracy

> I can't speak for all schools. But I think some schools have low 
> standards because they have low expectations. I have heard stories 
> about students who have graduated from programs and certainly 
> shouldn't have. I can't speak to them, I can only speak to my personal 
> experiences with GEB. And this is in no way bashing GEB, the 
> instructors, or the graduates. These are merely my observations and 
> experiences.
>
> First, I confess I should not have received a guide dog because at the 
> time I applied, I had poor mobility skills. I was never comfortable 
> crossing traffic-lighted intersections, and I hoped that the field rep 
> who came to do my home interview and video would not ask me to do any 
> street work on busy roads. Fortunately for me, the person didn't. The 
> field rep recorded me walking a route on my college campus, which was 
> pretty much like walking through a residential neighborhood because it 
> was a small campus.
>
> During guide dog training, I scared the hell out of my instructor. It 
> was just once, but I was ready to cross a super busy street. For a few 
> seconds nothing was coming, so I thought it was okay to go. I told the 
> Golden Guy forward. He stepped off the curb, because ... well, nothing 
> was coming. And my instructor nearly had a heart attack. I played it 
> off like I was just joking, and wanted to test the intelligent 
> disobedience thing. And I ended up getting an in-depth lecture about 
> the ins and outs of traffic training.
> When I got home with my dog, I admitted to my O&M instructor that I 
> struggled to cross busy streets by myself, and we needed to work on 
> it. I mean, before the dog, it was just me. But after training, I 
> wasn't just handling some inanimate object while crossing the street, 
> I was using a living, breathing creature whose life and well-being I 
> was responsible for. If anything horrible happened to him because of 
> poor judgment on my part, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself. So I'm 
> one of the people who faked it to make it.
> It's great that I was responsible enough to admit my weakness and 
> improve my travel skills before even daring to put my dog's life at 
> risk, but at the time, I really felt I shouldn't have graduated with a 
> guide dog.
>
> In my class, a few other people shouldn't have graduated and ended up 
> leaving with dogs, or at least shouldn't have left with their specific 
> dog. One guy was a previous student of Leader and had been sent home 
> without a dog. So GEB takes him in and gives this guy a dog. This guy 
> has horrible orientation skills. I mean, maybe he's one of those 
> people who was well-oriented outside and completely lost indoors, but 
> ... I didn't understand. It was a 26-day program, and 3 weeks in, this 
> guy acted like he knew where absolutely nothing was located in the 
> building where we waited while other teams were out on route. He acted 
> like the place was rearranged everyday. And there was no excuse. There 
> were 2 deaf-blind students there whose orientation skills were pretty 
> flawless, and this guy ... I guess he didn't care. Idk. He graduated 
> with a dog, and the dog ended up going back to GEB and was rematched 
> with someone else all within a year.
>
> This is to say that I don't think the trainers are well-versed in 
> appropriate or sufficient orientation/travel skills. Their job entails 
> training dogs and telling people how to work with them, I'm willing to 
> bet most guide dog schools' trainers know little about O&M training 
> and what level travel skills someone should have when they are working 
> a guide dog. They see when a person makes a mistake, but don't know 
> how to recognize when to crock it up to poor traveling skills.
>
> In addition, I think certain schools want to give people or the dogs 
> the benefit of the doubt. They're under stress, so they did this.
> They're in a new environment, so can you really expect them to do this 
> well? You're just here to learn to work a dog, the other stuff will 
> come later when you get home. No one has said these things, but by 
> their actions and attitudes, they may as well have.
>
> Again, not knocking GEB, but some of the things they did during 
> training pretty much screamed, "We got low expectations." If they have 
> changed any of this, please correct me. I would be delighted to know 
> that this is no longer the case.
> 1. During the 2 Juno-walks, the instructors didn't require us to 
> decide when to cross the street. They said: "Tell Juno forward," or 
> something along those lines.
> During those walks, we were not expected to judge traffic or make 
> calls. Those who have done Juno walks with dogs might have had a 
> different experience.
> 2. The instructors served us our meals.
> This was incredibly shocking to me. I've been to a training center for 
> the blind twice, and I expected that at GEB, we would line up at a 
> counter and someone would serve food onto our plates and we would have 
> to find our way to a table while carrying our food. Nope. We all sat 
> down, the instructors actually brought us our plates, and even poured 
> our drinks! How old are we?
> I mean, I get that it could get a bit disastrous with people not 
> knowing the lay out, some people having multiple disabilities, and 
> when you throw dogs in the mix, it could get complicated and 
> stressful. But that's life. If the rehab training centers do it, the 
> guide dog schools should, too.
> 3. There was one day where I was the last person eating in the dining 
> room, and a staff member who was there with me had to run downstairs 
> to do something. This person told me to stay in the dining room until 
> he came back. I piped up because I thought it was ridiculous that I 
> couldn't just leave when I felt like it. Nope.
> I never really noticed or thought about it before, but whenever a 
> student got up from the table to leave the dining room and go 
> downstairs, an instructor or staff member would magically appear to 
> watch you go down those eleven steps because God forbid you might 
> fall. For people who have balance issues, I understand. But for your 
> regular blind Joe, I don't see the need for it.
>
> That is just some of the things I noticed during training. It's 
> possible that the things I discussed simply depend on the staff 
> manning a certain class. It could also happen at other guide dog 
> schools, but I can only speak to the one I attended.
> Maybe I'm making mountains out of molehills. But it is little things 
> like this that show what the schools think we are capable of doing 
> successfully. I mean, what am I supposed to think when people are 
> reluctant or refuse to let me get my food and successfully carry it 
> back to a table to find a seat? How should I feel when I'm not allowed 
> to descend a single flight of stairs on my own. It makes me feel like 
> a liability.
>
> I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of GEB by any means, but I'm not 
> a loyal client who won't acknowledge the school's flaws. If I had to 
> get a guide dog again for the first time, I'd choose GEB. They were 
> able to give me what I was looking for in a guide dog school at the 
> time and matched me with the perfect guide dog, and I appreciate the 
> foundation they instilled in me for dog training and canine care.
>
> All this to make my point that guide dog schools likely have low 
> expectations of their blind clients, and so they have low standards of 
> who they are willing to accept and graduate. They don't know what it 
> looks like or means to be an independent blind person, nor do they 
> understand the ways in which they are robbing us of our independence.
> And because they don't allow us to fully demonstrate the extent of our 
> responsibility and independence, they exercise paternalism in varying 
> degrees.
> How do we as graduates change this? How do we demonstrate that we are 
> not liabilities? How do we bring about a change in attitude so that 
> schools treat us as independent individuals.
> --
> Raven
>
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