[nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog programs'admission standards
Dan Weiner
dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
Tue Jul 14 15:13:28 UTC 2015
One thing when I was a Leader grad that I liked (as opposed to a lot of
people who criticized this) is that LD really seemed to want to give
everyone a chance. One trainer explained to me that if the dog was able to
get the person out even if just to the mailbox then they wanted to give the
person a chance. Now I know some people stuck their noses up hearing that
but I actually thought it's a good idea.
I know that when I have said that to some people they will say "well they
just wanted to fill their classes", but couldn't you say that about any
school?
When I went to Leader (three times if you include one time when I didn't go
home with the dog). There were always some snotty student, usually a
partially sighted one, hate to say it, who would say "Oh, this or that
person shouldn't be getting a dog, they get around terribly". Actually once
that was me whom the person was complaining about-- --smile.
The trainer in a conversation which I overheard and probably wasn't supposed
to have overheard, explained that they will work with people of all differen
tlevels.
Now I am a client of Guide Dogs of America. There was a fellow in the class
who had had a motercycle accident and lost his sight and hearing in one
ear, Hell, I have that problem, though I didn't havve an accident--lol.
He, the guy I'm mentioning, really didn't understand the mechanics of
crossing intersections and they very patiently worked with him on it and
that spoke highly of them to me anyway. Every blind person is different and
I'm afraid we don't all fit in one mold.
I'd rather have someone who loves their dog and just goes around the block
then someone who acts like they resent or hate their dog and goes all over
the place, but of course that's just me and I suppose I'm in the minority.
Cordially,
Dan W. and the Parker Nut
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:57 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Marianne Denning
Subject: Re: [nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog
programs'admission standards
Cindy, I think every school except one does require some level of O&M
skills. I am sure it varies from school to school. I have found that I
depend on my orientation skills a lot more with my dogs than with my cane.
My dog may take a slight turn to guide me around an object and I need to be
aware of that very slight turn and be sure I am back on course. I did meet
one student who used a dog to go to the convenient store near his home and
back every day. His O&M skills were awful but he could do that route so he
was receiving his second dog when I received my first dog. It worked for
him so it worked with the school.
On 7/14/15, Cindy Ray via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Well, I have been trying to become a pastor in the Presbyterian Church
> for too long to admit, but I can't because of one exam. In that
> church, there are five tests you must pass to become a teaching elder
> or pastor. Although I have some good pastoral skills, these tests are
> designed to keep out the people who wouldn't. I cannot get in. There
> are going to be people who would not make it because of the kind of
> sytandards considered even though they would have been good. I wonder
> that they might need additional work. In my first class there was
> someone who didn't even understand the basics of when to tell if the
> light is green and much of our time was spent with the instructor
> trying to teach her that. I think that a person should have that kind
> of skills. Later on I know that some people have been told to go
> improve their mobility skills before they can have a dog. Then after a
> few months, maybe a year, they are accepted because they have done it.
> I am not sure your mobility skills have to be exemplary, but you might
> ought to have some.
> Cindy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> Carcione via nagdu
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 8:14 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog programs'
> admission standards
>
> But Raven, you did graduate, and you did well. I understand the idea
> that people should have good travel skills before getting a dog, but
> I've known enough who didn't and still have done very well with a dog
> that I'm not sure it should be a hard and fast rule. Yes, it helps a
> lot, but it doesn't seem to be absolutely essential. Basic
> traffic-reading yes, but great orientation and walking straight, maybe
> not.
> I think more instructors are getting degrees in O&M. I know TSE has a
> few, and so does GDB. Leader too, I think. I agree, it is helpful.
>
> My TSE Juno, I called the crossings. In class, my trainer, ex-GEB,
> did advise us when to cross in the beginning, a bit, on quiet streets
> where we weren't sure of the traffic patterns. "Is this a stop sign,
> or a light...?"
>
> As to being served meals, I agree. I wouldn't want to deal with
> carrying food the first day or 2 with the new, very excited dog, but
> after that, why not?
> At TSE, we come and go from the dining room as we please, though
> instructors direct traffic a bit when everyone is coming in. "Hold up
> a minute; we've got a traffic jam (or Kathy is reworking a clearance,
> or whatever). The students' section is past the staff section, so a
> student has to walk past staff tables to get out. More than once I
> was reminded to watch Krokus's big nose, walking past those tables.
> Tracy
>
>> I can't speak for all schools. But I think some schools have low
>> standards because they have low expectations. I have heard stories
>> about students who have graduated from programs and certainly
>> shouldn't have. I can't speak to them, I can only speak to my
>> personal experiences with GEB. And this is in no way bashing GEB, the
>> instructors, or the graduates. These are merely my observations and
>> experiences.
>>
>> First, I confess I should not have received a guide dog because at
>> the time I applied, I had poor mobility skills. I was never
>> comfortable crossing traffic-lighted intersections, and I hoped that
>> the field rep who came to do my home interview and video would not
>> ask me to do any street work on busy roads. Fortunately for me, the
>> person didn't. The field rep recorded me walking a route on my
>> college campus, which was pretty much like walking through a
>> residential neighborhood because it was a small campus.
>>
>> During guide dog training, I scared the hell out of my instructor. It
>> was just once, but I was ready to cross a super busy street. For a
>> few seconds nothing was coming, so I thought it was okay to go. I
>> told the Golden Guy forward. He stepped off the curb, because ...
>> well, nothing was coming. And my instructor nearly had a heart
>> attack. I played it off like I was just joking, and wanted to test
>> the intelligent disobedience thing. And I ended up getting an
>> in-depth lecture about the ins and outs of traffic training.
>> When I got home with my dog, I admitted to my O&M instructor that I
>> struggled to cross busy streets by myself, and we needed to work on
>> it. I mean, before the dog, it was just me. But after training, I
>> wasn't just handling some inanimate object while crossing the street,
>> I was using a living, breathing creature whose life and well-being I
>> was responsible for. If anything horrible happened to him because of
>> poor judgment on my part, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself. So
>> I'm one of the people who faked it to make it.
>> It's great that I was responsible enough to admit my weakness and
>> improve my travel skills before even daring to put my dog's life at
>> risk, but at the time, I really felt I shouldn't have graduated with
>> a guide dog.
>>
>> In my class, a few other people shouldn't have graduated and ended up
>> leaving with dogs, or at least shouldn't have left with their
>> specific dog. One guy was a previous student of Leader and had been
>> sent home without a dog. So GEB takes him in and gives this guy a
>> dog. This guy has horrible orientation skills. I mean, maybe he's one
>> of those people who was well-oriented outside and completely lost
>> indoors, but ... I didn't understand. It was a 26-day program, and 3
>> weeks in, this guy acted like he knew where absolutely nothing was
>> located in the building where we waited while other teams were out on
>> route. He acted like the place was rearranged everyday. And there was
>> no excuse. There were 2 deaf-blind students there whose orientation
>> skills were pretty flawless, and this guy ... I guess he didn't care.
>> Idk. He graduated with a dog, and the dog ended up going back to GEB
>> and was rematched with someone else all within a year.
>>
>> This is to say that I don't think the trainers are well-versed in
>> appropriate or sufficient orientation/travel skills. Their job
>> entails training dogs and telling people how to work with them, I'm
>> willing to bet most guide dog schools' trainers know little about O&M
>> training and what level travel skills someone should have when they
>> are working a guide dog. They see when a person makes a mistake, but
>> don't know how to recognize when to crock it up to poor traveling skills.
>>
>> In addition, I think certain schools want to give people or the dogs
>> the benefit of the doubt. They're under stress, so they did this.
>> They're in a new environment, so can you really expect them to do
>> this well? You're just here to learn to work a dog, the other stuff
>> will come later when you get home. No one has said these things, but
>> by their actions and attitudes, they may as well have.
>>
>> Again, not knocking GEB, but some of the things they did during
>> training pretty much screamed, "We got low expectations." If they
>> have changed any of this, please correct me. I would be delighted to
>> know that this is no longer the case.
>> 1. During the 2 Juno-walks, the instructors didn't require us to
>> decide when to cross the street. They said: "Tell Juno forward," or
>> something along those lines.
>> During those walks, we were not expected to judge traffic or make
>> calls. Those who have done Juno walks with dogs might have had a
>> different experience.
>> 2. The instructors served us our meals.
>> This was incredibly shocking to me. I've been to a training center
>> for the blind twice, and I expected that at GEB, we would line up at
>> a counter and someone would serve food onto our plates and we would
>> have to find our way to a table while carrying our food. Nope. We all
>> sat down, the instructors actually brought us our plates, and even
>> poured our drinks! How old are we?
>> I mean, I get that it could get a bit disastrous with people not
>> knowing the lay out, some people having multiple disabilities, and
>> when you throw dogs in the mix, it could get complicated and
>> stressful. But that's life. If the rehab training centers do it, the
>> guide dog schools should, too.
>> 3. There was one day where I was the last person eating in the dining
>> room, and a staff member who was there with me had to run downstairs
>> to do something. This person told me to stay in the dining room until
>> he came back. I piped up because I thought it was ridiculous that I
>> couldn't just leave when I felt like it. Nope.
>> I never really noticed or thought about it before, but whenever a
>> student got up from the table to leave the dining room and go
>> downstairs, an instructor or staff member would magically appear to
>> watch you go down those eleven steps because God forbid you might
>> fall. For people who have balance issues, I understand. But for your
>> regular blind Joe, I don't see the need for it.
>>
>> That is just some of the things I noticed during training. It's
>> possible that the things I discussed simply depend on the staff
>> manning a certain class. It could also happen at other guide dog
>> schools, but I can only speak to the one I attended.
>> Maybe I'm making mountains out of molehills. But it is little things
>> like this that show what the schools think we are capable of doing
>> successfully. I mean, what am I supposed to think when people are
>> reluctant or refuse to let me get my food and successfully carry it
>> back to a table to find a seat? How should I feel when I'm not
>> allowed to descend a single flight of stairs on my own. It makes me
>> feel like a liability.
>>
>> I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of GEB by any means, but I'm
>> not a loyal client who won't acknowledge the school's flaws. If I had
>> to get a guide dog again for the first time, I'd choose GEB. They
>> were able to give me what I was looking for in a guide dog school at
>> the time and matched me with the perfect guide dog, and I appreciate
>> the foundation they instilled in me for dog training and canine care.
>>
>> All this to make my point that guide dog schools likely have low
>> expectations of their blind clients, and so they have low standards
>> of who they are willing to accept and graduate. They don't know what
>> it looks like or means to be an independent blind person, nor do they
>> understand the ways in which they are robbing us of our independence.
>> And because they don't allow us to fully demonstrate the extent of
>> our responsibility and independence, they exercise paternalism in
>> varying degrees.
>> How do we as graduates change this? How do we demonstrate that we are
>> not liabilities? How do we bring about a change in attitude so that
>> schools treat us as independent individuals.
>> --
>> Raven
>>
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--
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053
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