[nagdu] Should Service dogs in training be allowed in the classroom?

Thu Jul 16 03:52:30 UTC 2015

Steve,

Requiring the identifying gear for dogs in training makes sense, since 
they're often accompanying an abled-bodied raiser or trainer. When folks 
were wanting a green vest on Mitzi, she was task trained enough that she 
was working me to new places, and I wasn't using the cane, so I sort of 
wanted to jump up and down about it. Also, green is GDB's trademark vest 
color, so even if I had used an in-training vest, it would have been a 
different color. Since at the time, as I understand it, GDB had specific 
arrangements with most area businesses for access for their puppy 
raisers, the vest was highly significant for them.

I'll admit that I'm happy enough not to be required to spring for a 
special vest at this point. If I'd been taking Loki into places more 
when he was really a puppy, I would have gotten one, though people see 
the white cane and get a clue that he's being trained and what for. 
Since we've been working on that bark of his while learning lots of 
outdoor guiding skills, he'll be largely task-trained by the time we're 
going into places where pets are not allowed. Turns out pets are allowed 
just about everywhere around here, so I'll have plenty of places to take 
him to practice indoor navigation and manners. By the time I'm ready to 
dare grocery stores and restaurants, he'll be guiding me there.

Will the law you're working on include a definition of "in training" for 
when the vest or whatever is required? When the dog is being trained by 
someone for the disabled person for whom it will work, the distinction 
is pretty cut and dried. With owner-training, it's more of a gradual 
transition, depending on the tasks involved and how quickly the dog 
learns them. I have a friend whose dog is fully task trained, but she's 
still working on a few things for public access training. She refers to 
the dog as "in training," quite properly in my opinion. Technically, 
though, for ADA purposes, it meets the definition of service dog. My 
beastie is starting to perform some tasks reliably while we're going 
about learning others. I can entertain myself by wondering for academic 
purposes if he meets the definition yet or not. Well, I could, if I had 
spare time when I'm not entertaining him. /lol/

I'll be interested to see the wording you come up with and see how your 
law fares.

Tami

On 07/15/2015 03:40 PM, Steven Johnson via nagdu wrote:
> Tami, as we get ready to introduce updated legislation here in Wisconsin,
> dogs in training are one of the things we are including.  Even though
> Wisconsin has a law in place already allowing service dogs in training to
> places of public accommodation, we have decided that because of the imposter
> dog issue, we are tightening their eligibility for public access, and must
> be wearing identifiable paraphernalia.  It's just an added protection.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis via
> nagdu
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 12:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Tami Jarvis
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Should Service dogs in training be allowed in the
> classroom?
>
> Debby,
>
> Since the ADA is about access for people with disabilities with their
> mobility tools, it makes sense that pups in training aren't included.
> More and more states are including dogs in training with their trainers in
> their service dog laws. I just did some review and discovered Oregon has
> added that. D'oh! I don't think knowing that would have changed how I've
> managed with Loki, which is why I didn't do a review earlier. The idea of
> taking the pup everywhere to get it used to being good indoors is nice...
> The reality is just plain scary. /lol/ Maybe if I could see what the pup was
> up to while taking him through the grocery store? Well, and that's when it
> would really help to see what's around and what the puppy will be responding
> to. If I could see the excited little kid coming before my puppy comes
> unglued wanting to play, then I could take effective action to keep him on
> the straight and narrow. Knowing about the yummy fresh pie at nose level
> right there in the aisle where I think there shouldn't be any such thing
> would also help. As it is, I need to rely on a measure of maturity in my
> pup, so I'm not rushing to take him to the store.
>
> Now that he's getting ready for indoor public access training, I'm glad to
> know I can just go where I need to go with him to refine the prep work I've
> been doing. I also think it's up to me as his trainer to be responsible and
> cognizant of the fact that he is still a puppy. No, worse! He's an
> adolescent. He can be mature and as solid as an old pro, then he can be a
> nut. So when I start taking him in, especially to high-stimulus
> environments, I'll need to evaluate him before taking the trip, evaluate
> again before walking in the door and maybe do some settling, and then I'll
> need an exit strategy anyway, with firm rules in mind for myself for when
> it's time to go and try again later. It's not all that different from taking
> a full grown, fully trained guide in, except that you don't plan for the
> dog's brains to fall out without notice by then. /lol/ While I'm wearing my
> trainer hat, then I need to remember that whatever else I am doing in the
> store, I am primarily training my young dog.
>
> What I did with Mitzi, since I didn't have legal access with her then until
> she was task trained, was just make arrangements with local corner markets
> and so forth, which I heard is how GDB managed it for their puppy raisers,
> at least in the metro area. Once I expanded our horizons and Mitzi was
> working enough I could just walk in all legal-like, I got tired of hearing
> about green vests -- which is what the GDB pups and dogs in training wear to
> identify them. This was before the big education push about the 2 question
> rule that made my life so much easier.
>
> It is an interesting problem, getting the pup the exposure it needs without
> drama and all while it's learning how to behave in the places it will be
> working. By the time Loki was reliably enough house broken for me to
> consider some indoor exposure, he had discovered his big bark and liked it.
> He still liked to just stop and study things that were new to him, but he
> had to add the commentary, so... We've got that mostly under control now and
> need to do some more dog distraction work while we wait for a bit more
> maturity to happen. Then I guess it's Wal-Mart or bust. /lol/
>
> Most of the owner-trainers or program puppy raisers I know take a similar
> approach to getting their youngsters the exposure they need in a responsible
> way. I've heard of folks that will just let their pups keep yapping or
> snapping or jumping or whatever but haven't encountered that myself. Dealing
> with a young dog in a high-stimulus environment is a learning experience,
> and mistakes happen. At that point, it's up to the trainer to deal
> responsibly with the mistake and know when it's time to call it quits and
> cancel the shopping trip or come back without a pup that's not ready.
>
> The same rules apply for when a dog in training can be removed from a
> business legally as for a fully trained mature dog. The same problems with
> businesses not knowing or being reluctant to ask that the dog be removed
> also apply. So I guess it's still up to the trainer to choose to be
> responsible, as it is with handlers of fully trained dogs. Puppy raisers for
> programs have the program's reputation to motivate them and whatever
> training the program gives them to help them know how to make good
> decisions. Owner-trainers are trying to make their lives easier and more
> hassle-free, so that's a good motivator for me and most of the
> owner-trainers I know.
>
> hth,
>
> Tami
>
> On 07/14/2015 09:03 PM, Debby Phillips via nagdu wrote:
>> Dogs in training have no rights under the ADA.  They may be banned, it
>> depends on the places where people want to take their pups in training.
>> I have mixed feelings about this.  On the one hand, how do puppies
>> learn good behavior? But sometimes pups, when they get excited, have
>> accidents.  Or other things.  So I guess I'm okay with the law.    Debby
>> and Nova
>>
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