[nagdu] Better screening?

Jessica Diaz PC savedbygrace0421 at gmail.com
Sat Jul 18 18:37:15 UTC 2015 

Hello,
Schools cannot screen everyone. I also know of someone who has a dog but has perfect vision and drives. GDB let them through and when people tried to contact the school about this individual, they always call the individual first which of courses gives them enough time to get there I am blind act back in place. It makes no sens. This situation just shows me that people lie and can lie about anything. Schools unfortunately cannot perform polygraph tests smiles.
Jessica Diaz
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson via nagdu
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 10:05 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Michael Hingson; 'Tracy Carcione'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Better screening?

Tracy,

All you say is a good part of this discussion. Screening takes place from the time one applies for a guide dog until they go home. Do the schools perform to their maximum capability or do they sometimes let someone through due to other motivations like a need to graduate more students? I do not have data, but I have also heard of students who go home with dogs while they have not demonstrated a good aptitude for using a guide dog.

There have been enough stories like the one you just mentioned to at least explore how schools can better admit and graduate applicants. 


Regards,


Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via nagdu
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 6:53 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Tracy Carcione
Subject: [nagdu] Better screening?

Better screening sounds good, but how could it be done?  Are there reliable psych tests, for example, or can such things mean whatever you want them to mean?
People are in class for almost a month, and one would think the trainers could tell something, but I'm not sure.
There was a first-timer in my last class who often spoke sharply to his dog, and often seemed to be lost.  Should he have been sent home?  Or are they OK, now they're in his home environment?  I don't know.
What if the trainer just thinks the student is an idiot, or just doesn't like the student?  A team of people would have to make a decision like that.
JMT.
Tracy

> Mike,
>
> The question is why do schools not trust their consumers? The schools 
> say they do not arbitrarily repossess dogs. They also say that they 
> rarely ever repossess a dog. If true then why does the care of the dog 
> continue to come up? Some on this list and the schools cannot have it both ways.
>
> There is more than a home interview involved in passing ownership over 
> to a student/consumer. The instructors have all the time blind people 
> are in class to evaluate what they can expect from a graduate.
>
> It still comes down to trust. Either school staff trust consumers or 
> they do not.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
> Forzano via nagdu
> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 10:26 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Michael Forzano
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>
> Hi,
>
> My only concern with the resolution was for the well-being of the dogs.
> However, after reading this thread, I'm willing to give it consideration.
> It seems that the argument is that better screening processes would 
> prevent dogs from being given to people who shouldn't have them. I 
> talked with one of the instructors from my school who felt that it is 
> pretty easy for a person to put on a good show for a 2-hour home 
> interview. In training, everything is supervised; you are told when to 
> feed, park and groom your dog, when to work your dog, etc. so there is 
> likely little opportunity to mistreat your dog unless you want to be 
> sent home without them. So what kinds of better screening processes 
> would prevent dogs from being given to handlers who would be likely to mistreat them?
>
> I'm not against having high expectations for blind people, but this 
> mistreatment of dogs seems to be a real issue (see also the thread on 
> overweight dogs at convention). The schools breed, care for, and fund 
> (through donations) the training of these dogs, so it only makes sense 
> that they want them to be placed in good homes and utilized to their 
> full potential.
>
> Mike
>
> On 7/11/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Cindy, write me offlist please! I may have friends you may have met.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy ray 
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:58 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Cindy ray
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>
>> Maybe the restaurant is a bad analogy. The dogs are gifts. They are 
>> given on behalf of the donors. Your use of other gifts is not 
>> monitored, so why should this gift be?
>> Also, there are always bad apples, but why should all be penalized? 
>> We need to trust ourselves more than that, too.
>>
>>
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Marsha Drenth via nagdu 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As all topics on the list, this one will soon enough die. Everyone 
>>> needs to remember that we all have the right to express our opinion, 
>>> to agree and disagree about topics like ownership. So for those 
>>> people who have agreed with unconditional ownership, you have as 
>>> much of a right to say what you would like, as do the people who do 
>>> not agree. Just because you can't see the other side, doesn't mean 
>>> it's not right.
>>>
>>> I too did not know about this resolution before getting to 
>>> convention, it would have been nice to discuss this before hand.
>>> I would also like to say, this is my opinion and only my opinion, I 
>>> think that even within the nfb, there is a hierarchy of some people 
>>> and others.
>>> I don't know why this is, but I think the two persons that spoke 
>>> against the resolution at convention, are not a part of nagdu and a 
>>> part of that higher elite. That is the way I see it at least.
>>>
>>> Marsha drenth
>>> email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>> Please note that this email communication has been sent using my 
>>> iPhone.
>>> As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to mitigate 
>>> errors. Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as 
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Howard J. Levine via nagdu 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You make no sence when you go to Restaurant you pay your food they 
>>>> don't give it you for free, and by way guide dog living thing. This 
>>>> subject is getting old.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d 
>>>> keeler via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:49 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: larry d keeler
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am 
>>>> disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Well, like Burger King or McDonalds or Wendy's, the burgers are 
>>>> different but you own them after going there!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of margo 
>>>> and isis via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:33 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: margo and isis
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am 
>>>> disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I hope the conditional ownership programs decrease or change to 
>>>> unconditional ownership.  There is no valid reason, in my opinion, 
>>>> for schools not to allow unconditional ownership.  The Seeig Eye 
>>>> has done that since its inception and other schools have tried it 
>>>> and made it work.
>>>>
>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina 
>>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:10 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am 
>>>> disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Hello Everyone- I think it is important to remember that we as 
>>>> guide dog users have a choice of what training program we would 
>>>> like to attend. I don't want a one size fits all training program.
>>>> Its like going to Burger
>>>> King and excepting   to get a Big Mac. It is my belief that we as
>>>> guide
>>>> dog users need to educate each other as well as people looking to 
>>>> get a dog  on the different policies and practices of all of the 
>>>> training programs  so  that we can make an informed choice of which 
>>>> program fits our needs. Now if unconditional ownership is a 
>>>> deciding factor in one obtaining a dog, then apply to a program 
>>>> that grants it and the programs that have a conditional ownership 
>>>> policy will start to decrease in their numbers. As of the here and 
>>>> now, those programs who have conditional ownership policies don't 
>>>> have an incentive to change because of their numbers.
>>>> Jmts.
>>>> Tina
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby 
>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 10:00 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am 
>>>> disappointed
>>>>
>>>> It is doubtful to me whether people will really change schools 
>>>> because of ownership. I think there are lots of folks who aren't 
>>>> users of guide dogs within MFB who do not understand the issues.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 10:59 AM, larry d keeler via nagdu 
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, until something happens to convince NFB to get on board, it 
>>>>> will certainly be wise to read your choice of schools contract. It 
>>>>> could make a difference if people start going to schools where 
>>>>> ownership is offered and stop going to schools who's contracts 
>>>>> don't offer it! Consumer choice!
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:41 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Cc: Julie J.
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am 
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>
>>>>> Shannon,
>>>>>
>>>>> The resolution itself changes nothing at the guide dog schools.
>>>>> The resolutions are used as guiding principles for the 
>>>>> organization.  A positive vote means that the organization 
>>>>> will/can actively pursue that goal.  a negative vote means little 
>>>>> because the goal can still be pursued, just not with the force of 
>>>>> the entire organization behind it.
>>>>> Once a resolution is passed, the decentors are supposed to keep 
>>>>> their dissenting opinions to themselves and support the vote.
>>>>> However a resolution that didn't pass means that the concept is 
>>>>> still up for debate or discussion.  A resolution that doesn't pass 
>>>>> isn't considered to be a policy or decision.  For example the 
>>>>> resolution we are discussing if passed would mean that the NFB 
>>>>> would actively work with the guide dog schools to provide 
>>>>> ownership.  since it didn't pass it means nothing.  It doesn't 
>>>>> mean that the NFB supports non ownership.  It means the issue is 
>>>>> still open and undecided. If folks wanted the NFB's position and 
>>>>> support to go to the idea of the schools retaining ownership, then 
>>>>> a resolution to that effect would have to be introduced and passed.
>>>>> Perhaps the resolutions could be viewed as a priority list of 
>>>>> things the organization wants to accomplish.  At least this is the 
>>>>> way I have always understood resolutions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog 
>>>>> is now available! Get the book here:
>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Shannon Dyer via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 9:26 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am 
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the 
>>>>> resolution better.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? 
>>>>> For example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant 
>>>>> immediate ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My 
>>>>> understanding is that the guide dog schools are independent 
>>>>> entities. How does this resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>>
>>>>> Curiously,
>>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu 
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate.
>>>>>> At least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu 
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well to be truthfully honest it never should've went to a 
>>>>>> rollcall states it was obvious that the nose had it but hey 
>>>>>> somebody just couldn't take the loss so they try to sneak it 
>>>>>> through by asking for a rollcall but thank God in the end 
>>>>>> democracy and justice prevailed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Julie J. via nagdu 
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where 
>>>>>>> can I go to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea 
>>>>>>> this resolution was being presented until it was way too late to 
>>>>>>> talk to the people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my 
>>>>>>> thoughts on the subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me 
>>>>>>> that I didn't know to be able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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