[nagdu] Wanted: opinions about guide dogs

Tue Jul 28 16:55:31 UTC 2015

Hi Michaela, 
I do not think you should worry about size. I am 4 feet and 9 inches tall and weigh about 70 pounds and my dog weighs 60 pounds. She is a bigger dog thn I thought I would get ased on my size but believe me she's the right dog. Shall hereas a steady even pull and is very cautious and gentle with me. She is strong enough to pull me down if she ernted but that's not her nature at all. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2015, at 1:49 AM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Mikaela,
> I second everything Buddy said. I'll add on some things he didn't say
> for the sake of not being repetitive.
> 
> First, size doesn't matter. What matters is pace and pull.
> Essentially, you want a dog whose walking speed matches yours and who
> has a pull that is desirable and necessary for you to feel motion
> through the harness and follow your dog. Schools won't, or at least
> shouldn't, give you a dog you can't handle. For instance, if you're
> 100-lb, you might not end up with the 80-lb labrador male or German
> shepherd. While it's possible and has probably happened, it isn't
> likely. I don't think you need to make specific requests in regards to
> size, but if you truly feel it is necessary, make your wishes known.
> Guide dog schools put out golden retrievers, labrador retrievers,
> golden/lab crosses, German shepherds and other breeds like poodles,
> Dobermans, and so on. There are dogs to match every walking speed,
> physical size, and handling abilities, and just about every lifestyle
> except a sedentary one. If you are a slower walker, they've got a dog
> for you. If you nearly run down the sidewalk, they've got a dog for
> you, too.
> There are female labs and goldens out there in the 45-55 lb range,
> which is very small. There are dogs 60-75-lbs, which is average, and
> shepherds and some male labs are over 75 lbs, providing taller and
> larger guide dogs. Some schools breed for size tendencies, while
> others do not.
> 
> Which training program is best depends on your personal needs and
> desires. What do you care about from a training program? Here is a
> list of things to consider in order to help you choose the right one
> for you.
> ownership policy: Some schools offer ownership upon graduation, while
> others require you to meet certain stipulations, and a certain number
> of years to pass before they will transfer ownership.
> Length of program: How many weeks will you spend in training with the
> guide dog? Some schools have a 2-week program, other 3 weeks, and I
> think the 26--28 day programs are still out there.
> Training methods: Some schools primarily use reward-based positive
> reinforcement training, while other programs primarily use
> correction-based compulsion training.
> Option of home training: A handful of schools allow clients to
> complete training in their home environment, while others will allow
> clients to complete part of the training at the school and the
> remainder in the home environment. Everyone has obligations that keep
> them from spending an extensive amount of time away from home, school,
> or work, so this is very beneficial for those individuals.
> 
> Here are some other things to consider that differ from school to school.
> Does the school offer follow-up help and services in your area?
> Does the school offer financial assistance with vet bills?
> How close is the school to your home environment?
> How old are the dogs when they are issued to clients?
> What breeds does the school offer?
> Does the school allow clients to have open communication with their
> dogs' puppy-raisers?
> 
> And note that some programs are notorious for putting out dogs with
> health issues. Some are notorious for putting out dogs with behavioral
> pitfalls, but some of this is really hit and miss. These dogs go
> through much stress and change while they stay in the kennels at these
> schools, and they never come out the same dog that they were when they
> first came to the school for formal guide training.
> 
> Those are factors to consider when choosing a school. That is a choice
> only you can make since only you know what matters to you the most. If
> you need clarification on any of those factors, just ask. If you can't
> imagine why one of those factors is a big deal to some, we'll happily
> explain.
> 
> Pros and cons are subjective because what is burdensome to one person
> is not a big deal to another, and vice versa. Some people really hate
> that most dogs shed a tun and require grooming and vacuuming. Some
> people hate that dogs drool and poop. Obviously, these people probably
> shouldn't get dogs unless they're willing to put their attitudes
> aside.
> As Buddy mentioned, dealing with the public has to be the biggest
> disadvantage to having a guide dog. People will approach you because
> you have a dog. They will make stupid noises, voices, call to your
> dog, and say stupid stuff to your dog. They will pet your dog, grab
> your harness while they're helping you, and offer your dog food. They
> will ask you crazy and repetitive questions, tell you dumb stories,
> and try to talk to you when you really don't feel like it. To many
> people, this is a bother, and to others, it's not anything to get
> frustrated about.
> Also annoying is the people who refuse you service or who want to kick
> you out because of your dog. Get ready to handle cabbies, Uber
> drivers, etc to tell you they can't take you because of your dog, or
> to put your dog in the trunk. Doesn't happen every time, but it
> happens often enough that those of us who are regular customers of
> these services can complain about such experiences. Get ready for some
> restaurant staff to say you can't have that dog in here. I think it's
> a rite of passage.
> Dogs cost money. I recommmend to everyone to save up at least $300
> before they get their guide dog. I had $400 saved up beforehand, and
> it was a huge help. Dogs need veterinary care, toys, food, grooming
> tools, and you should also have quality cleaning supplies on hand.
> 
> Some annoying stuff about dogs in general:
> They get sick. It happens to all of us, even our dogs. But our dogs
> can't run to the toilet, and they aren't able to scream "I'm gonna
> puke!" or "I'm about to have cannon butt!" Sometimes, they prance
> around frantically, move around and huff and puff uncomfortably, or
> swallow frequently to show it. But if your dog doesn't come to you or
> can't get to you, or you're not in the room to notice and take action,
> bam! you've got an accident to clean up. Unless your dog has a health
> issue, this should be a rare occurrence.
> These dogs are stubborn. They have to be in order to be good guide
> dogs, no doubt. But sometimes, their stubbornness is irritating. Like
> when you're just exploring an area, but all your dog thinks is you're
> going the wrong way, so they really drag their feet, put the breaks
> on, or try to turn around constantly. Or when you wanna go to the
> grocery store, but that bus stop you use almost everyday is on the
> way, so your dog is convinced you need the bus stop and does his
> darnedest to make sure you don't pass it up. Maybe all dogs aren't
> like that, but many of them are creatures of habit, for sure.
> Even when you're tired, you've had a long day, or you don't have a lot
> of time on your hands, they need leisure time and playtime. Maybe some
> dogs are okay with mostly work and little play, but there are those
> who need to unwind after work. Of course, a glass of wine is out of
> the question, and sometimes that antler or nylabone isn't enough. They
> need interactive play regardless of what's going on in your life. I
> mean, a lot of dogs are very understanding when you're sick and will
> leave you alone, but when you've just been sitting at your desk all
> day, studying, they don't get why they haven't been out walking or
> playing a game of fetch. Some of us are lucky enough to have family
> members or friends who will engage our dogs in the instances we can't.
> But if that's not an option for you, you've gotta sneak in 10-15
> minute play sessions, massages, and the like.
> 
> The best things about having a dog:
> They guide you around obstacles, as opposed to finding them first,
> then finding a way around them.
> They will locate specific things on command if the school or you have
> taught them to. Find the chair, find the trash can, find the counter,
> etc.
> They learn routes quickly. Sometimes, it takes once, and other times,
> several repetitions does the trick.
> They help you find doorways and empty seats quicker.
> They get you through crowds or crowded rooms fluidly.
> They can motivate you to get outside and moving more.
> They can make you feel more comfortable with exploring your area,
> getting lost and unlost.
> They are adorable, caring, loving, confident, goofy creatures.
> 
> A tip I give to everyone who knows they're getting a dog, have a
> doggie shower. Seriously. Some of my friends have had great success
> with these. People give money and gifts, things you need for the
> future pup. Sending out invites or posting something on social media
> and asking for people to feel free to bring dog toys, treats, bones,
> bed, blankets, grooming tools, etc is a good idea depending on how
> much help you need and what you're willing to ask for.
> 
> Done with this novel for now.
> -- 
> Raven
> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
> www.1am-editing.com
> 
> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
> have or what you do.
> 
> Naturally-reared guide dogs
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
> 
>> On 7/27/15, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Wow...you ask the big $64K questions. And you won't get short answers, at
>> least, not on the pros and cons question.
>> 
>> Best program? Mine, of course, which is what most people will tell you.
>> You've got your work cut out for you there. Personally, I think the Seeing
>> Eye offers the most comprehensive and thorough traffic training in the biz,
>> period amen. However, all the programs do a good job I think, though there
>> are certainly philosophical differences. The ownership question, for
>> instance, may or may not be important to you. I am concerned, too, with the
>> trend at some schools towards shorter training programs for students. Simply
>> put, I don't believe two weeks is long enough for a first-time guide dog
>> handler to adjust to a dog for the first time. Sure, the mechanics of guide
>> work are the easy part, but there's a lot of material to absorb, and I don't
>> just mean the mechanics of guide work. But that's my opinion, and I'm an
>> expert on my opinion. It is entirely possible that I'm wrong.
>> 
>> Breeds: usually, labrador retrievers, golden retrievers, crosses of these,
>> and German shepherds, though sometimes other breeds are tossed in for fun
>> and variety. Make your preferences known when you apply, although I think
>> size isn't quite as important as exactly what you're looking for in a dog's
>> work. Put another way, do you want a smaller dog because you're a smaller
>> person? Do you want a smaller dog because you're afraid a bigger one might
>> pull you off your feet by accident? All things being equal, which they
>> rarely are, would you be OK with a larger dog if in most other respects, it
>> was a good personality and working match for you?
>> 
>> Pros and cons. Oh goodness. This one will generate all manner of cussing and
>> discussing. From my perspective:
>> 
>> Pros: Wide open spaces. Oh yes. You'll find it a lot easier to get across
>> wide open spaces with a dog. More than that, you'll find it easier to get
>> across wide open spaces and to doors with a dog. For places you visit often,
>> you'll find that your dog remembers them and indicates them to you. Those
>> are the biggest advantages. You'll also avoid all the poles, holes, benches,
>> and other obstacles you might otherwise find. This can, of course, sometimes
>> be a disadvantage if you regularly use these things as landmarks. You'll
>> likely learn to use different kinds of landmarks with a dog though. Still,
>> making that adjustment is a process. Also, having that extra bit of help in
>> traffic is a real advantage.
>> 
>> Disadvantages: biggest one in my expert opinion (see above) is public
>> interference and, well, just the public generally. Not only will people
>> always be wanting to, or in fact, petting your dog, but you'll hear all
>> about the dog that every person on earth has had that looks just like your
>> dog, except it was bigger, or smaller, or was a different color, or a
>> different breed, but otherwise identical. You will have your dinners with
>> friends interrupted by such people. Ditto books you're reading on the bus,
>> or any number of other things. Naturally, there are all the usual sorts of
>> things with all critters. Vet bills, food bills, picking up doggie poo and
>> responsibly disposing of same. Some may consider those disadvantages. I say
>> they're just a thing, not a huge deal. The biggest disadvantage, I mean
>> second, next to public interference, is that dogs don't live forever, and
>> you'll be doing it all again in, if you're lucky, 6-8 years, and if you're
>> exceeding lucky, longer than that. I have been lucky so far. A possible
>> disadvantage: if you don't actually like dogs, you might not be happy with a
>> guide dog. This seems to be common sense, but you'd be surprised.
>> 
>> I won't mention things like the epic battles of wills we sometimes have with
>> our dogs. Sometimes we're right, and other times we are very, very wrong.
>> Fortunately, these dogs are usually pretty resilient, and they're also very
>> forgiving. A good thing, too.
>> 
>> Well, that should be a start for you anyway.
>> 
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 27, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Mikaela Stevens via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear guide dog users:
>>> 
>>> I am considering getting a guide dog. I am a little person, so I hope to
>>> get a smaller dog. What kinds of dogs are available? What is the best
>>> training program to use? Finally, what are the pros and cons of having a
>>> dog?
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your time and help.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Mikaela
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>> 
>> 
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