[nagdu] minature horses as guides

Tue Jun 23 19:49:10 UTC 2015

Hi, Raven,

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution to the discussion of miniature
horses as guides. You are correct that guide horses do great with overhead
obstacles and keeping track of moving objects all around us because of their
wide field of vision. I have also found that my mini horse guide has a great
memory for all her tasks and that she doesn't get "rusty" even after a
lay-off of some time due to bad weather or other interruptions in our
regular work schedule. I also find that the horse is much more conscious of
slippery or otherwise dangerous walking surfaces than the dogs are. This is
probably because dogs have a lower center of gravity and can scrabble over
very rough or uneven surfaces, whereas horses have to be more aware of where
they place their feet, so they understand that their partners need to be
alerted to such conditions. At any rate, Panda is great at slowing down for
slippery spots and avoiding rough patches, mud, water, etc. And her back
just happens to be the perfect height to provide that little extra support
for those times when the icey places are unavoidable. She is also good about
stopping for cracks in the sidewalk and other changes of elevation. I don't
know whether all miniature horse guides are as good at these things as Panda
or whether it is because she has been trained and handled using positive
reinforcement methods so that she considers all of these "obstacles" to be
opportunities for reinforcement rather than things to worry about.

And you are also correct that guide horses do not have the animal
distraction issues that some dogs do. While my miniature horse has been
known to take a bite of grass from time to time when we are walking on a
grassy surface, this has not proven to be a major inconvenience. The grass
does not run away, and the horse doesn't display predator hunting behavior.
I do discourage her from grazing when we're away from home because I'm not
sure whether the grass has been treated with pesticides or other chemicals.
Panda does get to graze at home, of course. But she has never bolted away
from me to chase a cat or a squirrel or a dog or another horse, for that
matter. She has never pulled me off my feet to go after a dog in a passing
car, or toppled my chair over backwards to attack a cat silently sneaking
past, as one of my guide dogs has done. Loose dogs do sometimes come running
and barking towards her, probably thinking that she is another dog. But they
usually make a wide circle around her and back off when they get close
enough to see or smell that she is not a dog invading their territory. So I
may have less trouble with other dogs in the environment than most guide dog
users have. If a dog does try to jump on Panda or sniff her too impolitely,
she will press against my leg for protection and to push me away from the
offending dog, and will use her hoofs as a last resort to protect herself
and me. But she doesn't seem to trigger aggressive behavior in most dogs.

Panda rides standing up in most vehicles, as horses do in horse trailers.
This is the position in which their balance is best. In my family minivan,
she stands sideways between the front and middle row of seats, and we have a
barrier which would hopefully confine her in that position in case of a
sudden stop. In buses, she stands beside me if I'm sitting in the side bench
seats that face the wide aisle, or she stands sideways between the rows of
seats if I'm sitting in the forward-facing seats. If I'm in a restaurant or
meeting, I try to place her beside or behind my chair away from the table
edge. She usually takes a nap standing up or lays down and curls up for a
nap. Guide horses can be taught to lie down on command, but this is more to
comply with the preferences or demands of officials, rather than because it
is what is best for the mini-horse.

You're right that there are trade-offs when using a mini-horse guide rather
than a guide dog. There are places where I don't take my miniature horse,
either because I don't want to deal with the excitement she attracts or
because of the close quarters or because I will be highly focused on
something and will find it distracting to need to take care of her needs.
There are certainly times when I think I would love to have a little guide
dog that I could just stow under my chair or under the bus seat. But then I
remember how heartbreaking it was to lose my beloved Labrador guide after
such a short decade of our life together, and how much more discouraging it
was to have to end my partnership with guide dogs that were retired early
due to insurmountable behavioral or temperament issues. And when I'm
cruising down the street with my amazing little horse and I'm feeling her
confidence and joy through the harness handle, I can't imagine giving up
that feeling or that relationship. So I'm sticking with my Panda, at least
for the foreseeable future.

Again, thanks for your thoughtful response.

Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:27 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Raven Tolliver
Subject: Re: [nagdu] minature horses as guides

Sandra,
Your response is very inappropriate, and your claim is ill-supported.
Saying that guide horses are a stupid idea because of this one horse you
encountered during this one event was a safety risk and nuisance is a faulty
generalization. People have done the same with dogs and people. "Well, this
one dog bit me when I was a child, so all dogs are dangerous." Or, "This one
guide dog I saw at this restaurant was barking and lunging, so it's okay for
all guide dogs to behave in such a way." Or, "This one black man robbed my
family when I was young, so all black people are criminals." Or, "This one
man assaulted me, so all men are monsters." Do you see my point?
Don't make a generalization off of one experience. Just as all dogs, guide
dogs, and people are not the same, not all horses or guide horses are the
same. Your claim makes no sense. And I think you can phrase it more
diplomatically.

I think guide horses are a great idea for people who don't like dogs, are
more fond of horses, and want a service animal with a longer lifespan.
Another upside to horses is that their field of vision is greater than dogs
because of the positioning of their eyes. Also, horses would do great with
clearing overhead obstacles because they're prey animals, so they naturally
look up. People with guide horses might not have to deal with the
distractions and problem behaviors that people with guide dogs do. I don't
want to assume, but I wonder if guide horse handlers have as many issues
with scavenging, sniffing, animal-distracted horses.
There are some disadvantages to the horses, such as more frequent relieving
times, needing a yard for the horse, and maybe dealing with a horse who
won't lie down. But I think they can be trained to lie down. I mean, they
can get into cars and such, so I imagine they're not standing during a car
ride.
Dogs and horses are different animals, and have different abilities,
advantages, and drawbacks. But I think the people with horses obviously view
their guide horses as being less of a chore and more advantageous, otherwise
they wouldn't have one. Just as those of us with guide dogs generally don't
consider our dogs a burden or bothersome, I imagine horse handlers are just
alike. If it was such a hassle, they wouldn't have them.
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or
what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

On 6/21/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I've seen them inside! I've even heard of them playing with toys!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Pam via 
> nagdu
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 3:30 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Pam
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] minature horses as guides
>
> i was wondering the same thing too if they would have to live outside 
> or could they live indoors.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 21 Jun 2015, at 20:18, Valerie Gibson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is very interesting to me, and i have a couple questions and
> comments.
>>
>> First, I don't think the ADA recognizes guide horses.   Is this true?
>>
>> Second, is it also true that guide horses must live outside rather 
>> than
> indoors?
>>
>> Again, very interesting topic.  Thanks for sharing your experience 
>> with
> the guide horses.
>>> On Jun 21, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Ann Edie via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, Pam,
>>>
>>> I don't know which miniature horse guide and partner was shown in 
>>> the program you saw, but I have worked with a mini horse guide for 
>>> the past 11 years. I know of 3 or 4 other people who are long-term 
>>> guide
> horse partners.
>>> Like everything else, there are advantages and disadvantages of 
>>> using a miniature horse as a guide as compared with using a dog 
>>> guide or a white cane. The major advantage of using a miniature 
>>> horse guide is that the lifespan of a miniature horse averages at 
>>> least twice the
> lifespan of a dog.
>>> Miniature horses live easily into their thirties and can work well 
>>> into their twenties. The major disadvantages of the mini horse guide 
>>> as compared with dogs is that they take up a little more space and 
>>> that they need to be relieved more often than do dogs. I had 3 dog 
>>> guides before I got my miniature horse guide, and in my experience, 
>>> my miniature horse performs better and more consistently in her work 
>>> than did any of my dog guides, even my very excellent first guide. 
>>> My mini, Panda, started working when she was
>>> 2 years old. She is now 14, and she just keeps getting better and 
>>> better, more confident and intuitive. As you might imagine, we 
>>> communicate by tiny movements and shifts and she seems to read my 
>>> intentions even before I can consciously give her a cue. And I can 
>>> look forward to many more years of joyous travels with her. We have 
>>> had almost no difficulty with access to public places or transportation.
>>>
>>> I don't think many people will be switching from guide dogs to 
>>> miniature horse guides in the near future because more people are 
>>> familiar with dogs than with horses and because there is (as far as 
>>> I
>>> know) no active guide horse training program in operation at this 
>>> time. All the miniature horse guide teams I am familiar with except 
>>> the first have been owner-trained or privately trained.
>>>
>>> There's lots of information on the web about miniature horse guides 
>>> and miniature horses used as service animals for people with other
> disabilities.
>>> Information about my partner Panda can be found on the website of 
>>> her trainer which is: www.theclickercenter.com
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Pam via 
>>> nagdu
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 2:04 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Pam
>>> Subject: [nagdu] minature horses as guides
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> i was watching a program about ghide dogs the other day and there 
>>> was a woman in the US who had a minature horse as a guide. just 
>>> wondering what u all think of the idea? do u think it will catch on? 
>>> personally i'd prefer a dog though :) Sent from my iPhone 
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