[nagdu] service animals and Uber or Lyft again

Sat Oct 17 10:58:48 UTC 2015

History would suggest that there is no easy solution to insisting that your 
civil rights not be violated.  It takes years and years of effort by a large 
number of people within the minority group to stand up and say, "no more.  I 
will be treated with the same dignity and respect offered to everyone else". 
If you don't want to do that, fine, but please don't make it more difficult 
for those who will.

Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now 
available! Get the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
-----Original Message----- 
From: Raven Tolliver via nagdu
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 7:55 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Raven Tolliver
Subject: Re: [nagdu] service animals and Uber or Lyft again

Julie,
The example you offered in relation to blacks doesn't quite compare. A
more similar situation to the one at hand might be if I put out an
online or newspaper request for service, e.g. an electrician,
handyman, etc, and also added in that I was black, to prevent some
racist handyman from showing up at my place. Of course, then I run the
risk of being turned down, and waiting longer for a handyman who is
not racist or worried about likely showing up in a black neighborhood.
Or, putting my information out there for someone to hunt me down and
commit hate crimes. Definitely way more extreme, no matter how you
slice it considering violence against blacks was and still is legally
acceptable.

Our situation is different here in many respects. But the biggest
problem seems to be that there is a gross lack of education, and also
failure to adequately screen drivers and weed out those who would
likely discriminate. Really, this is a lose-lose situation. Whether
you add the button or not, you will end up facing discrimination if
you use this type of service.
I personally am not interested in being stranded, so I minimize my use
of the service in the 1st place, and when I do use it, I give the
heads up. The people who decide not to, have that choice and right,
and can deal with educating, arguing, and the awful feelings of
distress, anger, disappointment, and degradation as a driver sees
their dog and pulls away, shouting "sorry" out the window. That's not
happening to me again if I can prevent it. I don't appreciate these
instances, and I am not taking on the responsibility of personally
encountering every Uber driver in my area who will refuse me because I
choose to use a guide dog. Perhaps that makes me a coward, and
inconsiderate of my blind and guide dog traveling counterparts in the
eyes of others. If that's the case, then so be it, and kudos to those
who take it upon themselves to do the opposite.

What is a more practical solution to this problem?
Raven

On 10/16/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> As someone mentioned, if the button is added, we'll have to deal with
> drivers who don't want to take us because we decided, based on
> personal choice, not to use the button. If you do decide to use it, it
> will give drivers an easy way to bow out of driving you. Many of these
> drivers don't even realize a service dog is well-trained and will
> simply lie on the floor and not cause any issue. I've been asked by
> drivers who ended up taking me if my dog will be okay in the car, if
> she bites, etc. These drivers will likely just not accept when they
> see the word dog pop up on their screen. The impact to us will be
> longer wait times for a ride if the closest drivers don't want to
> accept.
>
> Mike
>
> On 10/16/15, Cindy Ray via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Raven, whether you like it or not, when you travel with your guide dog,
>> you
>> are, in fact, representing not only people who are blind but also guide
>> dog
>> users. I get what you are saying about the button; of course I would 
>> never
>> use it. From the moment you do use it though, then I am condemned by the
>> drivers when I do not use it. Then it comes down to, “You should use that
>> button on the app because that is the courteous thing to do.” I’ve had
>> that
>> happen to me in cabs before. Of course I don’t live where there is a high
>> incidence of this refusal happening, though it does because it happened 
>> to
>> me with Uber.
>> Lest you think you are not representing all guide dog users—and I’m not
>> saying this is fair—I was in a beauty school one day and one of the
>> students
>> wanted to pet my dog. I said she couldn’t do it. She said, “Well so-&-so
>> let
>> us pet her dog.” I told her that this was fine if they wanted to do that,
>> I
>> do not. People when they see one blind person do something, then we all
>> do.
>> That’s the way of it. So even if you are going about your business and
>> have
>> places to go and things to do, every time you would tell the Uber company
>> you have a dog, you are telling them I am required to tell them that, 
>> too.
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 4:12 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I almost never notify anyone that I'm bringing a dog along with me
>>> unless it is someone's home, or someone who is giving me a ride
>>> somewhere.
>>> However, I agree with Debby here. It's definitely a time and energy
>>> saver to just let someone know ahead of time, rather than wait for
>>> that person to arrive and get into it with them, get left, then have
>>> to request another driver, who might also turn you down.
>>> If Uber adds a button that sends a notification that someone has a
>>> service animal, then the ride request goes out with the notification,
>>> and you don't have to be worried about going through one or multiple
>>> acceptions and refusals. The first person to accept you will be
>>> someone whose okay with the dog, and you can be on your way without
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> You can't force people to obey the law, and no matter how many drivers
>>> Uber gets rid of for violating the ADA, there are still more to come.
>>> I have learned that. Getting rid of one doesn't get rid of 'em all,
>>> and doesn't stop more from joining. So yes, I am in favor of this
>>> button being added. It would save a lot of hassle. There are truly
>>> insensitive people out there, and I'm not sure how Uber can screen its
>>> drivers to weed out the inconsiderate folk. But this button would
>>> allow us to avoid dealing with them at all.
>>> If it was required that you have to check a box, saying whether or not
>>> you have a service animal, I would find that problematic. It should
>>> always be our choice as to whether we want to disclose or not. But
>>> tossing in an optional button for service animal users to click is
>>> great.
>>>
>>> When I need a ride somewhere, I am not representing guide dog
>>> travelers or the blind community. I'm a woman who has business to take
>>> care of, and little time or tolerance for nonsense.
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>>> www.1am-editing.com
>>>
>>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
>>> have or what you do.
>>>
>>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/16/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> It's strange that blind people in this iPhone group are defending Uber
>>>> drivers who deny access to us. I would guess that those people
>>>> haven't experienced being denied access and being late to meetings, or
>>>> almost missing a flight due to being denied multiple times in a row,
>>>> as I have.
>>>>
>>>> My concern is that since we are a relatively small segment of Uber's
>>>> customer base, that if blind people start contacting them requesting
>>>> this button be added to the app, that they might actually go ahead and
>>>> add it.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 10/16/15, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Marianne,
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me share with you a similar circumstance about when a private
>>>>> vehicle becomes a place of public accommodation. If a realtor uses his
>>>>> or
>>>>> her vehicle to transport buyers to show them homes, their private
>>>>> vehicle
>>>>> is
>>>>> now a place of public. Uber drivers are now offering their private
>>>>> vehicles
>>>>> to transport the general public and are, therefore, required to abide
>>>>> by
>>>>> the
>>>>> provisions of Title III of the ADA. HTH!
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne
>>>>> Denning
>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:30 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Marianne Denning
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] service animals and Uber or Lyft again
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks everyone.  The main point I am hearing from people on the 
>>>>> iPhone
>>>>> list
>>>>> is that the drivers are using their private cars.  My response is that
>>>>> once
>>>>> they use a private car for a public purpose then it is not a private
>>>>> car
>>>>> during that time.  Am I correct here?  I know this is all still 
>>>>> getting
>>>>> through the courts but, is that the position of NAGDU?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Michael has a good point about the GPS tracking the driver. If you
>>>>>> tell them in advance and they deny you access, it's your word against
>>>>>> theirs, whereas if they drive to your location that is clear proof
>>>>>> they denied you because of your dog.
>>>>>> Also, I've had two drivers deny me in a row, so it's definitely
>>>>>> possible, and you might not be saving yourself much time by telling
>>>>>> them in advance. Then, that's one more driver who thinks they can get
>>>>>> away with it, which could affect you or another blind person in the
>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/14/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Debby,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do what you think you must. However, keep in mind that you might
>>>>>>> have one or two drivers in a row who refuse to take you and you 
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> are short on time and left stranded.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many of us have a significant amount of experience with this issue
>>>>>>> whether it be with Uber or from other circumstances. Not all of us
>>>>>>> wish to take such a hard line which is why we all love this free
>>>>>>> country. Sometimes fighting the good fight does help. You have to be
>>>>>>> the one who decides your actions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can only say that you and the rest of us as blind people are the
>>>>>>> true blindness experts. We will only be perceived as such if we
>>>>>>> promote our expertise consistently and all the time..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is easy to have an excuse for our actions, but consider this. If
>>>>>>> you give advanced notice and a driver chooses not to come to pick 
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> up then what about the next time that driver gets a request and the
>>>>>>> requester does not inform the driver about their guide dog? You
>>>>>>> already have empowered the driver because they simply refused you 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> there will not be consequences for their refusal. As I said in a
>>>>>>> previous email denying a request is easy.
>>>>>>> The driver will never be held accountable for their action, or lack
>>>>>>> of action, unless they are dumb enough to say they denied you 
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> of their dog. Given that Uber is now putting information out to
>>>>>>> drivers informing them about their responsibility to accept
>>>>>>> passengers with guide dogs the smart drivers will never tell and we
>>>>>>> all lose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:08 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips <semisweetdebby at gmail.com>; oagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] service animals and Uber or Lyft again
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you all are dead set against letting folks know.  And I
>>>>>>> understand that, but if you're short on time, you don't want to be
>>>>>>> left
>>>>> strandand.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> just think people have to use common sense, figure out what is
>>>>>>> happening in their life at that moment, and do what we need to do.
>>>>>>> If I have lots of time, if I am in a safe place where I don't mind
>>>>>>> waiting, then I don't tell.
>>>>>>> If I have an emergency and don't want to be left strandand, then I
>>>>>>> tell.
>>>>>>> Sorry, but that's the way it is.     Debby and Nova
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> son.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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