[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Tue Sep 1 21:52:24 UTC 2015

I love being a member of the nfb and nagdu but wont't give up my right 
to use my dog anywhere that I choose within the law and I won't attend a 
center that won't allow me to use my dog.

On 8/31/2015 9:05 AM, Nimer Jaber via nagdu wrote:
> This issue is an important one to me, and is a huge example of why I 
> will never ever attend an NFB center.  Even though in my line of work 
> I promote choice, I think really hard before recommending an NFB 
> center as well.
>
> The NFB wishes me to be independent.  NAGDU wishes to represent my 
> rights as a dog user to use my dog anywhere I wish, so long as the use 
> of the dog isn't a life-or-death issue for someone.  Yet an NFB 
> training center that receives state and possibly Federal funding 
> dictates where I can and can't use my dog, all because their 
> instructors are incompetent at working with an individual with a dog 
> or because some individual that knows very little about the needs and 
> requirements and dignity of a dog handler and his or her partner.  
> This is not, as some will over-simplify it, an issue of someone not 
> doing what a boss says.  This is an access issue. You are stating that 
> I can not use my dog because your training center won't make that 
> accommodation of my preferred method of travel. The centers say that a 
> cane is superior to a dog and that regardless of my preference, my 
> choice, my desire to utilize a specific aid, I have to conform to your 
> methods because it has been proven to work for billions of years.
>
> Here's the real issue.  If I ran a training center for cooking for 
> blind people and I sought state and federal funding and I invited you 
> to come but I told you that you were not allowed to use your cane 
> during the day because it was my belief that can be grounded in fact 
> with some numbers that you bond better if you feel your way through 
> your environment and it was my method of structure discovery, you 
> would be all up on that stating that I was violating your rights and 
> that a cane is fundamental and you should be able to use your cane.  
> Here's an issue that is even better... Uber, a private company that 
> offers ride-sharing, is taking a lot of flack because its individual 
> drivers feel like taking a dog isn't in their best interests.  It 
> messes up their car and their workflow, they might even be alergic.  
> Yet they are forced to accommodate dogs.
>
> A dog user can certainly choose not to attend an NFB training center, 
> and I know of many that have made that very decision.  Or they can 
> choose to abuse their dogs by cooping them up for 6-9 months all day 
> long just to work them on days that evening activities don't exist or 
> on weekends when activities don't exist... which takes up more time by 
> the way... not to mention that a dog is likely to develop behavioral 
> issues from being so damned bored after being cooped up alone all day 
> long. And the entity, Nagdu, that purports to represent guide dog 
> users and that is a proud division of the National Federation of the 
> Blind doesn't actually care about whether or not a training center 
> that receives state and federal funding can dictate where an 
> individual can and can't use their dogs, but they do care about Uber 
> or IFB or any other company that tells people where they can and can't 
> use their dogs.
>
> I think Dave had the right of it... a training center that actually 
> listens to its customer base and modifies a training for each 
> individual wherever possible without cutting the quality would be a 
> wonderful thing.  Structure discovery within itself is pretty great.  
> Not, however, when it patronizes the people getting the training by 
> telling them "hey, we know what is good for you, and even though you 
> may have decent travel skills, a dog just isn't a good mobility tool, 
> so you should use a cane because we know that works, and maybe after 
> you use a cane you can use your dog" even though they completely 
> discount the fact that working a cane and working a dog requires 
> totally different skills for orientation and navigation.
>
> Anyways, love the lively debate.
>
> On 8/31/2015 09:43, Cindy Ray via nagdu wrote:
>> What may be rare, Mary Ann. Yes, I would recommend that one go to the
>> centers before getting the dog, but of course it isn't always an option.
>> Then you simply must abide by the rules or you don't get the 
>> training. If
>> you think that the training could enhance your skills and confidence, 
>> then
>> do you really want to give it up because for a few months you will 
>> have to
>> work with a cane. You aren't going to spend a few months away from 
>> the dog
>> because you can have it there; you work it when you are out of 
>> classes, yes?
>> This means evenings and weekends for the most part. You are not asked to
>> leave the dogs at home. I am wondering if there are recordings of 
>> when the
>> centers came and spoke at NAGDU, or if there is updated information 
>> that can
>> be found? We are truly batting this issue around and saying the same 
>> things
>> over and over and over again, but where are we really getting with it?
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne 
>> Denning
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 9:38 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> I have had dogs for 25 years and have used a cane between dogs on 3
>> occasions.  I had to get to a bus, transfer buses downtown which 
>> involved
>> walking 2 or 3 blocks.  I was successful doing this.  I certainly 
>> believe my
>> cane skills could improve, as most of us can improve our cane 
>> skills.  I am
>> not willing to risk the possible retirement of my dog so I can obtain 
>> this
>> training.
>>
>> At this time, my recommendation will be that anyone go through the 
>> center
>> training before obtaining a dog.  Unfortunately, that is not possible so
>> each person must decide if training is more important than the potential
>> need to go to school to obtain a new dog. This may be rare, but it does
>> happen.
>>
>> On 8/31/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> As do I! What I don't get is that yyou can't use the dog during other
>>> classes! I could even live with occasionally leaving the dog for an
>>> hour or two for mobility and cane practice. Like you, I have grown up
>> using a cane.
>>> I have only in the last 10 years have used the dog. If I can prove I
>>> have good cane skills, then why should I have to not use my dog?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth
>>> Campbell via nagdu
>>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 8:21 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Elizabeth Campbell
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>> All, I cannot emphasize the importance of keeping up your cane skills
>>> even though working with a dog is your preferred travel method.
>>> As you know, I had to retire my dog very suddenly, and believe me
>>> there is a learning curve for me since I hadn't used my cane as often
>>> as I should, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Having a good grounding in cane skills is essential for every blind
>>> person given that life happens and you just never know when you will
>>> be without your dog.
>>> I didn't attend an NFB training center, but I understand the rules and
>>> philosophy and the emphasis on the blindness skills training.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>> Hingson via nagdu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 3:29 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I want to address comments by Lisa and Raven.
>>>
>>> First, the center staff asks students not to use guide dogs during
>>> much of the training, including travel class, both in order to teach
>>> cane travel and to provide lessons concerning orientation or what we
>>> have come to know as "structured discovery". These concepts while
>>> supposed to be known in part by guide dog users seem not to be
>>> understood. I have seen many questions on this list which show
>>> people's lack of confidence or a lack of knowledge of good orientation
>>> skills.
>>>
>>> Even guide dog training programs do encourage their consumers to come
>>> having attained good orientation skills as they recognize that they
>>> cannot spend the month or less that students are in their programs
>>> teaching orientation and mobility or adjustment. Leader Dogs has a
>>> one-week, I believe that is the time, mobility course. That is not
>>> nearly enough time to learn and develop good orientation skills in my
>>> opinion. However, it is a start for some.
>>>
>>> The centers have a job to do. Using a guide dog during travel will not
>>> promote the learning of good travel skills that are learned when
>>> learning to use the most basic travel tool, the cane.
>>>
>>> Now let's move to items such as calling the centers "attitude 
>>> factories".
>>> While that is not the term I would have coined that is what they are.
>>> The purpose of the centers is to put together a program that not only
>>> teaches consumers travel and other skills, but they teach attitudes
>>> about blindness.
>>> Their most basic function is to help their attendees to understand
>>> that blindness is NOT what holds them back. Remember that people come
>>> to the centers usually not knowing much about being blind because they
>>> have either never been exposed to good role models or they are newly
>>> blinded. In both cases they, like the rest of us, have lived in a
>>> world where people with eyesight constantly remind us, consciously or
>>> not, that blind people cannot live as well or as productively as they.
>>> Every person on this list can cite examples of this. Here is one I
>> observed last year.
>>>
>>> I was in a store with a relative. We just arrived at the checkout
>>> counter where there was another customer in front of us. I was not
>>> using Africa, but rather a cane. My cane hit the person in front of me
>>> and I, because the line was close, also slightly bumped into the
>>> person. While I immediately apologized my relative jerked me back and
>>> later did not even recognized that I had interacted with the other
>>> customer including apologizing. By the way, the customer said "no
>>> problem". Even today the relative and his wife feel what he did was
>>> right calling it "natural behavior". It is not "natural behavior", but
>>> learned behavior due to poor attitudes about us. I have lived around
>>> those people for many years and still today they are really
>>> uncomfortable about blindness and me. They are also uncomfortable
>>> around my wife, Karen, who is the actual blood relative.
>>>
>>> Centers teach many of us to have the confidence or yes, attitude, that
>>> we are really part of society and that we can be whatever we want if
>>> we can dream it. Most "orientation and mobility centers" in this
>>> country and elsewhere do not focus on attitude as the NFB centers do.
>>> So yes, our centers are in a way attitude factories and I am glad of 
>>> it.
>>>
>>> I have not attended a center, but I worked for quite a while with Dr.
>>> Jernigan in the late 70s during the development of the original
>>> Kurzweil Reading Machine. I spent much time at the Iowa Commission for
>>> the blind observing and participating in some of the commission
>> activities. Dr.
>>> Jernigan used this time as part of my "training" in Federation
>>> philosophy and in how he worked with employees and clients. That
>>> training was invaluable to me and I keep it in mind and use it daily.
>>>
>>> I have spent time observing and working around our NFB training
>>> centers and see not only the Jernigan influence, but how the processes
>>> of the centers have evolved including how guide dogs are treated. I
>>> for one do not believe anyone can develop a similar center based on
>>> using a guide dog. The interactions are different. The whole process
>>> would be different due to the nature of how a blind traveler and their
>>> guide dog interact. The same level of learning environmental awareness
>>> and "structured discovery" would not work. As the old adage goes "you
>>> must learn to walk before you can learn to run". We can learn to run,
>>> as it were, with guide dogs or canes, but learning to "walk" with a
>>> guide dog, that is learning the basic orientation and travel skills,
>>> will not happen with a guide dog as easily or as well, for the most
>>> part, as with a cane. Even the guide dog training programs 
>>> acknowledge it
>> so I think that debating it further is not productive.
>>>
>>> I hope this helps the discussion at hand. I would suggest that anyone
>>> who disagrees with what the NFB training centers do should take the
>>> time to contact the centers and learn about the programs. Don't take
>>> my word for it.
>>> Don't take the word of anyone else as your only source of information.
>>> Call or visit and then discuss.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via
>>> nagdu
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:00 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Lisa <dreamymarmot93 at yahoo.de>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I have a question regarding the training centers.
>>> Why does the dog have to stay in an office while the student is in
>>> class whereas it is totally normal to have the dog with you _in_ the
>>> class room/office at school, college or university? Wouldn't we all be
>>> very annoyed if a college had the policy of leaving the dog in the
>>> headmaster's office during class?
>>> I'd just be interested in the difference that obviously exists between
>>> learning at the center and at a mainstream school or work.
>>>
>>> Thanks for explanations.
>>> Lisa
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marianne Denning via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Marianne Denning" <marianne at denningweb.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 6:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>>
>>>> Julie, wwhere do you work?  Is the decision to let the person work
>>>> with their dog based on each individual's progress through the
>>>> program?
>>>>
>>>> On 8/30/15, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Raven,
>>>>>
>>>>> A few thoughts...
>>>>>
>>>>> First I do not believe that guide dogs and canes are diametrically
>>>>> opposed,
>>>>>
>>>>> as you previously asserted I said.  I believe they are different,
>>>>> but that many of the skills are similar or overlapping.  I believe
>>>>> that orientation skills are the much, much larger part of
>>>>> orientation and mobility training.
>>>>>
>>>>> Folks learn to use a guide dog for mobility in less than a month.  I
>>>>> also believe that you can learn to use a cane strictly for mobility
>>>>> in that time.
>>>>>
>>>>> However the larger orientation skills take months and months to
>>>>> learn and master.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've said before that it is preferable to learn orientation skills
>>>>> while using a cane.  This is because it causes you to learn without
>>>>> confusing a dog or inadvertently relying on input from the dog.
>>>>> Here's an example...early in O&M training here at our center, people
>>>>> learn the skill of identifying where the door out of a room is, even
>>>>> if they are the only
>>>>> person in the room.   This skill is the predecessor to more advanced
>>>>> skills
>>>>>
>>>>> like mall travel where you need to be able to recognize when you
>>>>> pass a certain store or leave one area of the mall for another and
>>>>> the like when there is no distinct doorway.  Here's the thing
>>>>> though, if you are a dog user, even if you do not cue the dog to
>>>>> find the door, it is going to be the
>>>>>
>>>>> obvious thing and they are going to suggest it.  The person may
>>>>> never pick up on the subtle indications of where that door is.  They
>>>>> don't learn that base skill to be able to build on it later and
>>>>> perhaps later the dog doesn't
>>>>>
>>>>> know which way to go in the mall because there is no obvious choice.
>>>>> Because
>>>>>
>>>>> the person hasn't learned to recognize other clues in the
>>>>> environment, they
>>>>>
>>>>> don't know how to direct the dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raven, you seem to have very good O&M skills.  For you it may make
>>>>> little difference if you went through center training with a cane or
>>>>> dog, but having worked at a center, I can absolutely tell you that
>>>>> the huge majority
>>>>>
>>>>> of people are not like you.  They are attending the center training
>>>>> because
>>>>>
>>>>> they need to better their skills, all of their skills. We do have
>>>>> people
>>>>>
>>>>> attend our center with their guide dog.  Here they work their dog in
>>>>> their free time, before and after classes and at the lunch break.
>>>>> As the training
>>>>>
>>>>> progresses, the dog is incorporated into travel class and other 
>>>>> times.
>>>>> By
>>>>> the very end of training, the person will be back to working the dog
>>>>> the majority of the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> We all know that dogs get sick,  tragic things happen and eventually
>>>>> the dog
>>>>>
>>>>> will need to retire.  For about 99.9% of us this means using a cane
>>>>> when the
>>>>>
>>>>> dog is unavailable.   It's unrealistic to think that someone will be
>>>>> able
>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> work their dog 100% of the time for the person's entire 
>>>>> lifetime.   So
>>>>> if
>>>>> you don't have decent cane skills this means you are going to need a
>>>>> human guide, put your life on hold or have two dogs at all times.
>>>>> Seems to me having learned to use a cane would be a good base skill
>>>>> to have.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that all of the programs have requirements about being able
>>>>> to use
>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>> cane or show that you have good O&M skills.  But let's be brutally
>>>>> honest with ourselves for a minute,  we all know that what passes
>>>>> for good O&M skills varies widely from program to program.  I also
>>>>> cannot begin to count
>>>>>
>>>>> the number of stories I have heard from people who attended a
>>>>> program and had classmates who couldn't find their way around
>>>>> without significant help.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me it's pretty clear that folks with guide dogs do not all have
>>>>> good orientation skills.  Perhaps we could work with the guide dog
>>>>> programs to help them better understand the importance of acquiring
>>>>> good orientation training before getting a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> You made the argument that a dog is your preferred mobility tool and
>>>>> the center programs should support that decision.  I think they do,
>>>>> but that they also recognize that a dog is a mobility tool and that
>>>>> there is more to
>>>>>
>>>>> independent travel than mobility.    What if a person went to a 
>>>>> center
>>>>> and
>>>>> said they use GPS, so they don't need to learn orientation skills?
>>>>> that would be silly and no one would think that a good idea.  GPS
>>>>> only goes so far in getting you where you want to go.  It doesn't
>>>>> tell you when it's safe
>>>>>
>>>>> to cross the street, when there are stairs, when there's road
>>>>> construction or when a kid has parked his bike across the sidewalk.
>>>>> If someone went to a
>>>>>
>>>>> center and said they didn't need to learn to use the stovetop
>>>>> because they were going to eat microwave dinners for the rest of
>>>>> their life, no one would
>>>>>
>>>>> think that a good idea either.   The centers recognize that personal
>>>>> independence through skill training includes a wide variety of 
>>>>> skills.
>>>>> It
>>>>> means moving out of your comfort zone and learning new things.
>>>>> Perhaps there are people who only use the microwave to cook, but the
>>>>> point is that after center training that's a choice, not a necessity.
>>>>> To me that's what it's really about, having the choice to pick from
>>>>> a wide variety of skills to find the one that best fits the
>>>>> particular situation I find myself in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
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>>> eb.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> (513) 607-6053
>>
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>
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