[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Raven Tolliver ravend729 at gmail.com
Wed Sep 2 23:54:23 UTC 2015


Michael,
We're not going in circles. Rather than continuing to solely present
arguments, I asked some hard questions that are within reason for the
opposing side to ponder and answer. This is not just a matter of
disagreement, but a lack of understanding. I would like to gain
insight into why my opponents believe as they do.
If no one has answers to my questions, there's nothing wrong with
saying I don't know. There is something wrong with battling other
organizations for their discriminatory practices, but turning a blind
eye to discrimination within the NFB.

I will do exactly as you have suggested and attempt to contact the
directors of all 3 training centers, and see where I get. I will also
take notes on the conversations and post them here. This is a very
serious matter to me, and is heart-breaking. I don't support
discrimination of any kind, and I will not make any excuse against
doing what I can to prevent others from facing discrimination.

Thanks Debby, Mike F, and others for your support. This is not
something to sweep under the rug and hide from. This is something that
should be addressed and pushed to the forefront just like
discrimination cases with Uber, Lyft, and other public establishments.
Some people just take what they can get, and will settle or
compromise. As blind people, we are often expected to do so. Just be
grateful for what you can get. No one is obligated to provide x
product or service to you. I don't agree with that way of thinking. If
things can be better, then we should try to make them better. There's
always worse, but there's always better as well.

On 9/2/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I don't think it's a matter of opinion whether or not the centers are
> discriminating. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. A guide dog user
> cannot attend one of the centers without risking their dog having to
> be retired, which, at least in my case, makes a center not an option
> if I needed independence training. Saying that guide dog users should
> just go somewhere else is discrimination. There's a reason the centers
> are so highly recommended, most other, non-NFB centers (at least the
> ones I know of) do not provide adequate training on how to live truly
> independently. It's super frustrating to me that other guide dog users
> and specifically the leaders of NAGDU do not understand this. Raven
> asked a lot of great questions, and I think they deserve to be
> answered. I don't think one of us having a discussion with a center
> director would be very productive. This seems like an issue we should
> be tackling as an organization.
>
> Mike
>
> On 9/2/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Debby,
>>
>> I am not a moderator, but simply suggesting that I am hearing comments
>> becoming more strident. We also are beginning to go around in circles
>> which
>> is not helpful. I am sure that people on this list have communicated the
>> thread to center staff. What is continued discussion here going to
>> accomplish?
>>
>> There have been some good suggestions made on the list. Why not consider
>> having a conversation with a center director and report back to us the
>> results.
>>
>> I tell you absolutely that my suggestion to cut off discussion would
>> occur
>> whether or not the discussion was about the NFB centers. Do NOT read into
>> my
>> words. I simply note that the discussion is getting testy. I suggested
>> that
>> we cease for the moment before the moderators do so.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby Phillips
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:32 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Debby Phillips <semisweetdebby at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> First of all, I do know that some people have chosen to leave Centers
>> because their dogs couldn't handle the long absence of their person.  And
>> some dogs have had to be retired because of it.  So it does happen.  But
>> I
>> also wonder why the moderators want to limit the discussion about this.
>> Is
>> it because we are talking about NFB Centers? If we were talking about
>> other
>> Centous, I would bet that there would not be a call to limit or stop this
>> discussion.  I think it's worth discussing.  Many of the same skills are
>> necessary whether you use a dog or a cane.
>> Getting lined up correctly at street crossings; listening to make sure
>> that
>> you and the dog aren't veering.  (Which happens, even with the best of
>> dogs).  It is still important to know how to judge traffic.  That can
>> certainly be learned using a dog as well as a cane.  The way I hear
>> people
>> talk about canes sometimes is that they're magic wands.  If I learn to
>> use
>> a
>> cane and do it well, then somehow I've arrived.  We as dog users know
>> that
>> that's bunk.  Sure it's good to have good cane skills.  And yes,
>> practicing
>> using your cane sometimes is a good idea.  An excellent idea.  Sure our
>> dogs
>> give us subtle signals, but if we don't follow those signals well, then
>> we
>> are not being the best dog handlers we can be.  If Centers are going to
>> be
>> in the forefront, I think it is time to re-examine the dog guide issue
>> and
>> perhaps to make some changes that would make it possible for
>> people to do part of their travel training using a dog.    Debby
>> and Nova
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhingson.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michaeldforzano%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ravend729%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
have or what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs




More information about the NAGDU mailing list