[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Thu Sep 3 03:02:58 UTC 2015

Well, those are actually board meetings, so it would be up to the board. It
vcould be a better notion if lots of folks wanted to do so to have such a
meeting at an extra call maybe>
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 10:00 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

I think this is a great idea.  I think a dialog between the centers
and NAGDU could be good.  Could we do this at one of the monthly
meetings?

On 9/2/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I think we all would like to hear what the centers have to say.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d keeler
> via nagdu
> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:05 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: larry d keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
> Raven, keep us or at least me up to date! I really would like to know! I
> would be curious what they say and how they treat the subject.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
> via nagdu
> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 7:54 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Raven Tolliver
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
> Michael,
> We're not going in circles. Rather than continuing to solely present
> arguments, I asked some hard questions that are within reason for the
> opposing side to ponder and answer. This is not just a matter of
> disagreement, but a lack of understanding. I would like to gain insight
> into
> why my opponents believe as they do.
> If no one has answers to my questions, there's nothing wrong with saying I
> don't know. There is something wrong with battling other organizations for
> their discriminatory practices, but turning a blind eye to discrimination
> within the NFB.
>
> I will do exactly as you have suggested and attempt to contact the
> directors
> of all 3 training centers, and see where I get. I will also take notes on
> the conversations and post them here. This is a very serious matter to me,
> and is heart-breaking. I don't support discrimination of any kind, and I
> will not make any excuse against doing what I can to prevent others from
> facing discrimination.
>
> Thanks Debby, Mike F, and others for your support. This is not something
to
> sweep under the rug and hide from. This is something that should be
> addressed and pushed to the forefront just like discrimination cases with
> Uber, Lyft, and other public establishments.
> Some people just take what they can get, and will settle or compromise. As
> blind people, we are often expected to do so. Just be grateful for what
you
> can get. No one is obligated to provide x product or service to you. I
> don't
> agree with that way of thinking. If things can be better, then we should
> try
> to make them better. There's always worse, but there's always better as
> well.
>
> On 9/2/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I don't think it's a matter of opinion whether or not the centers are
>> discriminating. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. A guide dog user
>> cannot attend one of the centers without risking their dog having to
>> be retired, which, at least in my case, makes a center not an option
>> if I needed independence training. Saying that guide dog users should
>> just go somewhere else is discrimination. There's a reason the centers
>> are so highly recommended, most other, non-NFB centers (at least the
>> ones I know of) do not provide adequate training on how to live truly
>> independently. It's super frustrating to me that other guide dog users
>> and specifically the leaders of NAGDU do not understand this. Raven
>> asked a lot of great questions, and I think they deserve to be
>> answered. I don't think one of us having a discussion with a center
>> director would be very productive. This seems like an issue we should
>> be tackling as an organization.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 9/2/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Debby,
>>>
>>> I am not a moderator, but simply suggesting that I am hearing
>>> comments becoming more strident. We also are beginning to go around
>>> in circles which is not helpful. I am sure that people on this list
>>> have communicated the thread to center staff. What is continued
>>> discussion here going to accomplish?
>>>
>>> There have been some good suggestions made on the list. Why not
>>> consider having a conversation with a center director and report back
>>> to us the results.
>>>
>>> I tell you absolutely that my suggestion to cut off discussion would
>>> occur whether or not the discussion was about the NFB centers. Do NOT
>>> read into my words. I simply note that the discussion is getting
>>> testy. I suggested that we cease for the moment before the moderators
>>> do so.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:32 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Debby Phillips <semisweetdebby at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>
>>> First of all, I do know that some people have chosen to leave Centers
>>> because their dogs couldn't handle the long absence of their person.
>>> And some dogs have had to be retired because of it.  So it does
>>> happen.  But I also wonder why the moderators want to limit the
>>> discussion about this.
>>> Is
>>> it because we are talking about NFB Centers? If we were talking about
>>> other Centous, I would bet that there would not be a call to limit or
>>> stop this discussion.  I think it's worth discussing.  Many of the
>>> same skills are necessary whether you use a dog or a cane.
>>> Getting lined up correctly at street crossings; listening to make
>>> sure that you and the dog aren't veering.  (Which happens, even with
>>> the best of dogs).  It is still important to know how to judge
>>> traffic.  That can certainly be learned using a dog as well as a
>>> cane.  The way I hear people talk about canes sometimes is that
>>> they're magic wands.  If I learn to use a cane and do it well, then
>>> somehow I've arrived.  We as dog users know that that's bunk.  Sure
>>> it's good to have good cane skills.  And yes, practicing using your
>>> cane sometimes is a good idea.  An excellent idea.  Sure our dogs
>>> give us subtle signals, but if we don't follow those signals well,
>>> then we are not being the best dog handlers we can be.  If Centers
>>> are going to be in the forefront, I think it is time to re-examine
>>> the dog guide issue and perhaps to make some changes that would make
>>> it possible for
>>> people to do part of their travel training using a dog.    Debby
>>> and Nova
>>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Raven
> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
> www.1am-editing.com
>
> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have
or
> what you do.
>
> Naturally-reared guide dogs
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053

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