[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Marianne Denning marianne at denningweb.com
Thu Sep 3 03:05:47 UTC 2015


I can go with that too.  I don't want it to turn into a fight with the
centers but open the door for discussions.

On 9/2/15, Cindy Ray via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Well, those are actually board meetings, so it would be up to the board. It
> vcould be a better notion if lots of folks wanted to do so to have such a
> meeting at an extra call maybe>
> Cindy Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
> via nagdu
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 10:00 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
> I think this is a great idea.  I think a dialog between the centers
> and NAGDU could be good.  Could we do this at one of the monthly
> meetings?
>
> On 9/2/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I think we all would like to hear what the centers have to say.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d keeler
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:05 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: larry d keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> Raven, keep us or at least me up to date! I really would like to know! I
>> would be curious what they say and how they treat the subject.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 7:54 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Raven Tolliver
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> Michael,
>> We're not going in circles. Rather than continuing to solely present
>> arguments, I asked some hard questions that are within reason for the
>> opposing side to ponder and answer. This is not just a matter of
>> disagreement, but a lack of understanding. I would like to gain insight
>> into
>> why my opponents believe as they do.
>> If no one has answers to my questions, there's nothing wrong with saying
>> I
>> don't know. There is something wrong with battling other organizations
>> for
>> their discriminatory practices, but turning a blind eye to discrimination
>> within the NFB.
>>
>> I will do exactly as you have suggested and attempt to contact the
>> directors
>> of all 3 training centers, and see where I get. I will also take notes on
>> the conversations and post them here. This is a very serious matter to
>> me,
>> and is heart-breaking. I don't support discrimination of any kind, and I
>> will not make any excuse against doing what I can to prevent others from
>> facing discrimination.
>>
>> Thanks Debby, Mike F, and others for your support. This is not something
> to
>> sweep under the rug and hide from. This is something that should be
>> addressed and pushed to the forefront just like discrimination cases with
>> Uber, Lyft, and other public establishments.
>> Some people just take what they can get, and will settle or compromise.
>> As
>> blind people, we are often expected to do so. Just be grateful for what
> you
>> can get. No one is obligated to provide x product or service to you. I
>> don't
>> agree with that way of thinking. If things can be better, then we should
>> try
>> to make them better. There's always worse, but there's always better as
>> well.
>>
>> On 9/2/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I don't think it's a matter of opinion whether or not the centers are
>>> discriminating. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. A guide dog user
>>> cannot attend one of the centers without risking their dog having to
>>> be retired, which, at least in my case, makes a center not an option
>>> if I needed independence training. Saying that guide dog users should
>>> just go somewhere else is discrimination. There's a reason the centers
>>> are so highly recommended, most other, non-NFB centers (at least the
>>> ones I know of) do not provide adequate training on how to live truly
>>> independently. It's super frustrating to me that other guide dog users
>>> and specifically the leaders of NAGDU do not understand this. Raven
>>> asked a lot of great questions, and I think they deserve to be
>>> answered. I don't think one of us having a discussion with a center
>>> director would be very productive. This seems like an issue we should
>>> be tackling as an organization.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 9/2/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Debby,
>>>>
>>>> I am not a moderator, but simply suggesting that I am hearing
>>>> comments becoming more strident. We also are beginning to go around
>>>> in circles which is not helpful. I am sure that people on this list
>>>> have communicated the thread to center staff. What is continued
>>>> discussion here going to accomplish?
>>>>
>>>> There have been some good suggestions made on the list. Why not
>>>> consider having a conversation with a center director and report back
>>>> to us the results.
>>>>
>>>> I tell you absolutely that my suggestion to cut off discussion would
>>>> occur whether or not the discussion was about the NFB centers. Do NOT
>>>> read into my words. I simply note that the discussion is getting
>>>> testy. I suggested that we cease for the moment before the moderators
>>>> do so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:32 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips <semisweetdebby at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>>
>>>> First of all, I do know that some people have chosen to leave Centers
>>>> because their dogs couldn't handle the long absence of their person.
>>>> And some dogs have had to be retired because of it.  So it does
>>>> happen.  But I also wonder why the moderators want to limit the
>>>> discussion about this.
>>>> Is
>>>> it because we are talking about NFB Centers? If we were talking about
>>>> other Centous, I would bet that there would not be a call to limit or
>>>> stop this discussion.  I think it's worth discussing.  Many of the
>>>> same skills are necessary whether you use a dog or a cane.
>>>> Getting lined up correctly at street crossings; listening to make
>>>> sure that you and the dog aren't veering.  (Which happens, even with
>>>> the best of dogs).  It is still important to know how to judge
>>>> traffic.  That can certainly be learned using a dog as well as a
>>>> cane.  The way I hear people talk about canes sometimes is that
>>>> they're magic wands.  If I learn to use a cane and do it well, then
>>>> somehow I've arrived.  We as dog users know that that's bunk.  Sure
>>>> it's good to have good cane skills.  And yes, practicing using your
>>>> cane sometimes is a good idea.  An excellent idea.  Sure our dogs
>>>> give us subtle signals, but if we don't follow those signals well,
>>>> then we are not being the best dog handlers we can be.  If Centers
>>>> are going to be in the forefront, I think it is time to re-examine
>>>> the dog guide issue and perhaps to make some changes that would make
>>>> it possible for
>>>> people to do part of their travel training using a dog.    Debby
>>>> and Nova
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Raven
>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>> www.1am-editing.com
>>
>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have
> or
>> what you do.
>>
>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>>
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>
>
> --
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053




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