[nagdu] Are Training Program Policies Discriminatory? was Talking points for convos with training centers' directors

Thu Sep 3 09:49:02 UTC 2015

Dear all,

	I am reading messages that assert the policies of NFB training
centers are discriminatory and in violation of the ADA. I am also hearing
that NFB and NAGDU should be doing something about this. I would like to
take up the second part of this first. 

	Just within the past week I have been told by four people what they
believe NAGDU should be doing. One of these people, who happens to be a
leader within the organization, even seemed to assert it was my specific
responsibility to do a thing. The other three were asked if they were
members of NAGDU, though I already knew the answer to that question when I
asked it! So, if the NFB or NAGDU are to do something about something, who
is the NFB or NAGDU and to whom should this task be assigned. Just in case
there is someone who doesn't know the answer to this question, the NFB and
NAGDU are its members. It is not the president; it is not the board of
directors; these individuals are simply the ones who conduct the business of
the organization at the pleasure of the membership. The members are the ones
who do the work. Of course, the president and board of directors are
members, too, and members first.to put it still another way, we have about
350 subscribers to this list - a service and asset of the NFB and NAGDU. How
many of these subscribers are NFB or NAGDU members? 

	We get a number of calls each week from guide dog users needing
assistance. Each of these individuals are asked if they are a member of the
NFB, not because it makes a difference as to whether or not we will help
them, but because it gives us a point of reference. A vast majority of those
wanting our help have an array of excuses why they are not a member. They
are willing to take advantage of our assets but unwilling to invest their
own. So, to those of you subscribing to this list and taking advantage of
our assets I ask, "Are you a member?" If not, you may want to take a few
minutes and invest $5.00 to do so. To become a member, simply visit

http://nagdu.org/membership.html

	Now, let me take up the second part of this message - the assertion
that the policies of the NFB training centers are discriminatory. If anyone
intends to discuss this issue with someone from a training center, that
person might want to formulate their argument first by gathering evidence to
support their argument. Simply stating an opinion will not be sufficient or
substantive. So, rather than respond to these assertions, I would be
interested in learning more about how such policies are discriminatory and
what provisions of the ADA or any other law or social policy supports  this
assertion. Whenever someone asserts something is so, it is incumbent upon
that person to demonstrate the validity of that assertion through the
presentation of objective evidence; it is not up to another to prove it is
not so. If one wishes to change social policy, it requires a sound,
thoughtful argument supported by factual objective evidence. Only then can a
person wishing to mount a counterpoint argument have the foundation on which
to defend a position. 

	I look forward to a thoughtful, factual, substantive discussion on
this topic. I also look forward to learning that many of you have chosen to
invest in our organization by paying your $5.00 dues! 

Fraternally yours,

Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
(888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
President at nagdu.org
http://www.nagdu.org

High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 10:27 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: S L Johnson
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Talking points for convos with training centers'
directors

Raven:

Excellent list of questions.  I would ask how or why they think they can get
away with violating the ADA by not allowing guide dog user's equal access to
all areas and activities of their programs and facilities.  To me, they are
in direct violation of this federal law.  As I said before, how can we
expect the rest of the country to follow the ADA when the NFB doesn't do it
and daily denies access to those using guide dogs.  This doesn't make sense
and must be stopped immediately.  I am amazed that this discrimination is
still going on after all these years.  I am also amazed that we haven't seen
lawsuits from guide dog users who have been denied access with their dogs at
the NFB Centers.  I've never attended any kind of rehab center but, believe
me if I did, I would not tolerate this kind of discrimination.  It is about
time that all guide dog user's start fighting back when we are denied equal
access.  It is particularly offensive when it is the  major advocacy
organization for the blind doing the discriminating.  NFB, SHAME ON YOU AND
NAGDU, SHAME ON YOU FOR NOT FIGHTING THIS!!!

Sandra
SLJohnson25 at comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Raven Tolliver via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 10:02 PM
To: nagdu
Cc: Raven Tolliver
Subject: [nagdu] Talking points for convos with training centers' directors

Below is a list of some of the questions I will use as guidelines to direct
my conversations with the training center directors, in the event that these
individuals are reachable.
Some of these questions can probably be combined.
If you think a question sounds offensive or off-putting, let me know which
ones and why.

1. What is your center's policy on guide dog use during classes?

2. In the past, did your center permit the use of a guide dog during
classes?
(If so, why was this permissive policy reversed?
or
Why does your center prohibit the use of guide dogs during all classes?

3. What difficulties or problems arise when teaching NFB philosophy and
independent living skills to a student using a guide dog?
and/or:
4. What specific concepts are impossible or challenging to teach to a
traveler using a guide dog rather than a cane or alongside a cane?

5. What fundamentals of NFB philosophy and independent living skills are
disrupted by allowing the use of a guide dog during all classes?

6. Why does your center choose not to phase in or reintroduce the guide dog
into the student's class time and O&M lessons?

7. Do you think using a guide dog is against NFB philosophy? Or, does it
contradict the way the NFB would like to portray blind people, or the way
the NFB would like blind people to think of themselves?

8. Have any clients accused you of practicing discrimination by restricting
the use of a guide dog during classes?

9. How is your policy against guide dog use during class not a
discriminatory policy?

10. Are you in favor of working toward incorporating guide dogs into the
training of guide dog travelers? Why or why not?

11. Are the O&M instructors at your center willing to devise a plan for
learning how to teach O&M to students using guide dogs?

Thanks for any input.
If you prefer to make any comments off list, email Ravend729 at gmail.com.
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or
what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

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