[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Fri Sep 4 01:07:47 UTC 2015

Thank you Raven I like way you put things keep up good talk.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Woods via nagdu
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 8:30 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Jennifer Woods
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

I have never attended and an FB center. What is their philosophy? How do they differ from other centers for the blind that may be located locally in other states?
Thank you
Jennifer

On Aug 29, 2015, at 11:35 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

Ah, but Dave, our views differ.
Allow me to quote you:

"they also teach us how to accept >> our blindness, how to prosper in a sighted world and other >> attitude-related factors.  I think it was Jim Omvig who said they
>> are >> '"attitude factories."'

Calling training centers "attitude factories" is like calling yoga classes meditation courses. There can be a large meditation aspect to yoga. In fact, part of yoga's purpose is meditative. However, the majority of people who do yoga and attend yoga classes are in it for the physical and mood-enhancing benefits of yoga, and not for the meditation aspect.

Here's you again,
"It seems to me that the service animal crowd should come together and
>> design a training center that does good things using a dog.
People have complained about our Centers and
>> dogs for as long as we have >> had centers, and these lists.  Do something about it!"

Here's an idea. Attend the training center's O&M lessons/training with your guide dog. That is my suggestion. That's doing something, and that's taking a stand, clearly asserting that a guide dog is your primary mobility aid, and if your gonna get further mobility training, it's gonna be with a harness and leash in hand.
Part of this continued discrimination is the fact that we allow the training centers to make up all the rules, and quite arbitrary ones if you ask me. I didn't get a guide dog so that somebody could tell me when and when not to use him. I got a guide dog to use him as a mobility aid in the circumstances that I see fit.
The decision to attend O&M at a training center should not be a decision not to use your own guide dog.
Another choice is to choose not to partake in O&M lessons if the dog is not allowed to be used as a mobility aid.
The training centers should understand that guide dog handlers have made the life-altering decision to use a dog as a mobility aid, no matter how damaging that is to the NFB philosophy. It is not about the NFB, it is about helping someone become more independent. Anyone daring to take on the challenges I have proposed here will come to understand how accepting or intolerant the NFB truly is.

Thanks NFB for establishing the centers, but there's still progress to be made in terms of ideology and best practices.
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

> On 8/30/15, David Andrews via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Raymond, I suspect we are closer in our views then your message 
> implies to me.  I was not simply talking about "feel good" attitude 
> adjustment.  Also I am sure it is possible that a Center could 
> accomplish what it does for both cane and dog users, but some of the 
> approaches would have to be different.
> 
> Dave
> 
> At 11:12 PM 8/29/2015, you wrote:
>> Dave, If someone needs an attitude adjustment, that person can visit 
>> a counselor, practice meditation, participate in group therapy, etc.
>> The people Iâ€™ve known who have visited training centers, including 
>> myself, attended one out of a need or desire to gain and improve 
>> independent living skills. In those sorts of situations, itâ€™s nice 
>> to have people to empathize with, who you can sit down and chat with, 
>> who understand what youâ€™ve gone through and the struggles you face 
>> as a blind person.
>> But ultimately, Iâ€™ve never known anyone who went for the sake of 
>> being patted on the back and told â€œItâ€™s okay to be blind. You 
>> should wear your disability loud and proud in the way we think you 
>> should wear it, not in the way that makes you feel most comfortable 
>> and accomplishes the most for you.â€  Not to say that isnâ€™t a part 
>> of some peopleâ€™s purpose for attending.
>> Iâ€™m sure it is for some. However, that is not the case for all 
>> clients, and just as any training is tailored according to a 
>> personâ€™s needs, learning speed, and learning style, I donâ€™t see 
>> why the training centers could not tailor their training methods and 
>> practices for the individual. blind pride is all good, but people 
>> should still be taught to accomplish and complete daily life tasks 
>> using the tools that best meet their needs if those tools are 
>> reasonably obtainable. When I was at the Michigan training center, 
>> all the clients there were and still are exposed to a variety of 
>> technologies and allowed to trial them to figure out which best suits 
>> their needs. Perhaps this is not representative of training centers 
>> in other states. If I own a guide dog, and a dog best meets my needs 
>> while traveling, why does anyone insist on me partaking in O&M 
>> training that does not integrate my guide dog? I have already been a 
>> cane user, and decided that travel is enhanced with a guide dog by my 
>> side.
>> As a guide dog user, I am not ashamed to be blind, and I have already 
>> decided that a cane is an inadequate mobility aid, or at least does 
>> not supersede what a dog can do as a mobility aid in most situations. 
>> Even if I was ashamed of demonstrating my blindness, or ashamed of 
>> what the white cane signifies to the sighted public, how does 
>> learning cane technique help me as a guide dog traveler? Guide dog 
>> travelers donâ€™t need anyone at a training center to coach them on 
>> using a guide dog. Weâ€™ve all spent at least
>> 10-28 days receiving proper training with our dogs. Why canâ€™t an 
>> instructor simply teach structured discovery without being a cane 
>> coach?
>> We can figure out how to use our dogs while the instructor provides 
>> input and advice on basic orientation. It is still possible to 
>> acquire route information, explore, find landmarks, and gain a sense 
>> of direction and location using tactile and sound clues from the 
>> environment. It just might not be the same tactile clues a cane user 
>> would use, and it would definitely rely on different methods than 
>> that of a cane userâ€™s.
>> We donâ€™t need to create a training center specifically for guide 
>> dog users. The assertion that such action should be taken is 
>> discriminatory. Really! These centers are for cane users and that one 
>> is for guide dog users.
>> We donâ€™t accommodate your kind here, so you can go over there with 
>> the rest of your kind.
>> Sounds like a million other prejudiced, intolerant, insensitive, 
>> discriminatory, devaluing battles that have been fought throughout 
>> history. Seems like there are still some kinks in the NFB philosophy. 
>> People have complained about prejudices and discrimination ever since 
>> the creation of woman and man. So we talk about it because discussion 
>> brings about change. This is a straight, wealthy, white, able-bodied, 
>> right-handed manâ€™s world. The fewer of those demographics you fit 
>> in to, the more discrimination you face, and the more you are put 
>> down by society, no matter whether you use a cane or a dog. Why is 
>> there a need to promote and encourage further discrimination?
>> Interesting that discrimination is the thing we fight, but even 
>> within minorities, there is this, Iâ€™m a better insert demographic 
>> here because of x reason. Iâ€™m a better black person because I wear 
>> my hair in French braids rather than wearing it straight like a white 
>> girl.
>> Iâ€™m a better woman than you because I can walk up to the checkout 
>> counter with nothing but a box of tampons and donâ€™t need to hide it 
>> with other groceries or go to the self checkout.
>> Iâ€™m a better man than you because I have a hairy chest and hairy 
>> arms. Iâ€™m a better blind person than you because I walk around with 
>> a cane, the originale mobility aid, instead of a dog. While weâ€™re 
>> focusing on discrimination, letâ€™s work on the instances that occur 
>> within our own community. -- Raven Founder of 1AM Editing & Research 
>> www.1am-editing.com You are valuable because of your potential, not 
>> because of what you have or what you do.
>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs >> On Aug 29, 2015, at 
>> 10:32 PM, David Andrews via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> >> wrote: >> >>
>> Raymond: >> >> What I am about to say probably won't go over well 
>> here.  Nevertheless, I >> hope people will think about what I say. >> 
>> >> Our three training centers and some others, teach skills of 
>> blindness, >> like travel, Braille and Technology, but they also 
>> teach us how to accept >> our blindness, how to prosper in a sighted 
>> world and other >> attitude-related factors.  I think it was Jim 
>> Omvig who said they are >> "attitude factories."  From my time at the 
>> New Mexico Commission for the >> Blind, and working near BLIND Inc., 
>> for over 20 years, I would say this is >> true. >> >> Part of how 
>> they do this is through travel with a cane.  People are moved >> to 
>> using a cane, having it at all times, accepting it, being proud of it 
>> >> etc.  For most people this is where the rubber meets the road in 
>> terms of >> adjustment to blindness. >> >> Our Centers are simply not 
>> just teaching skills and the cane is an >> integral part of the 
>> process. >> >> Now, could it also be done with a dog guide.  I don't 
>> know -- I am not a >> dog user, so wouldn't presume to say. I would 
>> think it might be harder >> because you are using the dog to make 
>> some decisions that a cane user >> makes.  Also, the public has 
>> different attitudes about dogs and canes, so >> don't know what a 
>> difference this would make. >> >> Anyway, our current centers do what 
>> they do in part through the cane.  Let >> them do what they do well. 
>> >> >> It seems to me that the service animal crowd should come 
>> together and >> design a training center that does good things using 
>> a dog. >> People have complained about our Centers and dogs for as 
>> long as we have >> had centers, and these lists.  Do something about 
>> it! >> >> Dave >> >> >> At 07:40 PM 8/29/2015, you
>> wrote: >>> This is ridiculous. Teaching me how to travel better 
>> encompasses >>> teaching me to use orientation skills in conjunction 
>> with a guide dog >>> since that is my mobility aid of choice. Better 
>> cane technique or cane >>> usage for mobility does not help me as a 
>> guide dog traveler. As guide >>> dog travelers, we are required to 
>> assess our environment through our >>> feet, hands, sound shadows, 
>> and cuing our dogs to locate certain >>> landmarks. I don't see how 
>> cane travel translates. >>> Cane travel and guide dog travel are 
>> diametrically different, as Julie >>> J described in a previous post 
>> relating to Tom trying for a guide dog. >>> If the training centers 
>> don't have these differences in mind and >>> cannot adapt lessons 
>> accordingly, I think this is incredibly devaluing >>> and 
>> inconsiderate of handlers relationships and use of their guide >>> 
>> dogs. >>> >>> After I got a guide dog, I received mobility training 
>> from an O&M >>> instructor around the city that I lived in. How 
>> useful would that >>> training have been to me if she had said, "Even 
>> though you've got your >>> dog, I'm gonna show you how to navigate 
>> the city using your cane." >>> What kind of sense does that make? The 
>> cane does things the dog >>> doesn't, and vice versa. I have to use 
>> certain techniques with my dog >>> that I never had to with a cane, 
>> and vice versa. >>> I'm not saying the training you'll receive will 
>> be useless, but part >>> of it will be a waste, considering there are 
>> important aspects of >>> guide dog travel you could concentrate on 
>> instead. >>> I understand that training centers teach much more than 
>> O&M. But I've >>> stayed at the training center here in Michigan, and 
>> the O&M >>> instructors there are perfectly fine with clients using 
>> their guide >>> dogs. In fact, my instructor at the training center 
>> recommended that I >>> apply to get a guide dog, a long while before 
>> I even considered it as >>> an option. >>> -- >>> Raven >>> Founder 
>> of 1AM Editing & Research >>> www.1am-editing.com >>> >>> You are 
>> valuable because of your potential, not because of what you >>> have 
>> or what you do. >>> >>> Naturally-reared guide dogs >>> 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs >>>
>>>>> On 8/29/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote: >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > I have not been to a 
>> center as a student, but I serve on one of the >>> > center >>> > 
>> boards and have talked to many people who have participated in the 
>> >>> > programs. >>> > My understanding is that centers will assist by 
>> permitting you to >>> > leave >>> > your >>> > dog in an office, 
>> possibly with staff, so the dog will not be alone. >>> > Remember 
>> that the reason, in part, for going to the centers is to >>> > learn 
>> >>> > better travel techniques which means developing better cane 
>> skills as >>> > that >>> > is what the centers teach.
>> You WILL find this invaluable after your >>> > time at >>> > the 
>> center. >>> > >>> > >>> > Best Regards, >>> > >>> > >>> > Michael 
>> Hingson >>> > >>> > -----Original
>> Message----- >>> > From: nagdu
>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> > Coleman 
>> >>> > via nagdu >>> > Sent:
>> Saturday, August 29, 2015 5:11 PM >>> > To:
>> NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users >>> > 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> >>> >
>> Cc: Ashley Coleman <amc05111 at gmail.com> >>> >
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers >>> > >>> > Hi, I 
>> know that these centers do a great job in regards to teaching. >>> > 
>> Please >>> > make sure that your dog get as much exercise as normal. 
>> Also, live a >>> > radio >>> > or TV on so that your dog has 
>> something calming to listen to. Check >>> > with >>> > your trainers 
>> to find out when they would like you to use a cane. >>> > Honestly, 
>> >>> > I would rather work with my dog than a cane. I would have a 
>> difficult >>> > time >>> > leaving Landon behind in my room all day. 
>> JMO. >>> > >>> > Ashley Coleman, >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> On Aug 29, 
>> 2015, at 19:07, Aleeha Dudley via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> >>> > 
>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Hello all, >>> >> I will be attending the 
>> Louisiana center for the blind in September. >>> >> I >>> > know what 
>> their policy on dogs is, but I would like to hear from those >>> > 
>> who >>> > have attended centers with your dogs. How was it? What can 
>> I do to >>> > reduce >>> > the stress on my dog from being left all 
>> day? >>> >> Thanks. >>> >> Aleeha >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my
>> iPhone >> >>        David Andrews and long white
>> cane Harry. >> E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org
> 
>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
> E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org
> 
> 
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