[nagdu] Are Training Program Policies Discriminatory? was Talking points for convos with training centers' directors

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Fri Sep 4 17:09:11 UTC 2015 

As I understand it, being a member of a division makes me a member of NFB, but being a member of NFB does not make me a member of a division.  Otherwise, no one would pay division dues, right?
Tracy


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via nagdu
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2015 1:06 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are Training Program Policies Discriminatory? was Talking points for convos with training centers' directors

Mary Ann, I'm not sure what the policy on that is because we don't have a division affiliate in Iowa. However, even if you are a member of OAGDU only, the way I see it, that makes you a member in good standing of an NFB Division affiliate. I am sure the board members will respond to you on this question.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning via nagdu
Sent: Friday, September 4, 2015 11:19 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are Training Program Policies Discriminatory? was Talking points for convos with training centers' directors

Now I am concerned.  I am a member of OAGDU, the Ohio chapter.  Is my name on the list as a member of NAGDU?  Do you have a list of all paid members in the U.S.?

On 9/4/15, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Raven,
>
> 	According to our records you are not a member of this organization. 
> It is very easy to criticize what we do as long as you sit on the 
> outside looking in and criticize what we do. Perhaps it would be 
> better to join the organization so you have a real voice in our 
> policies and the privilege of electing its leaders. To state that I am 
> a figurehead is to discount the membership who elects me. I am here to 
> serve at the pleasure of the membership. Most who know me will attest 
> to the fact that I am responsive to the membership, have a very open 
> and transparent level of accountability, and am willing to consider 
> other points of view. Perhaps it would be better to become involved in the organization and work for synergistic change.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven 
> Tolliver via nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 10:52 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Raven Tolliver
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are Training Program Policies Discriminatory? was 
> Talking points for convos with training centers' directors
>
> Marion,
> You are a figurehead. All presidents are. When you don’t put up a 
> fuss, or at least address things the way people think your 
> organization should, you will be criticized for it and badgered about it.
> I see reason for the tizzy though. It doesn’t make sense when the 
> organization that advocates on behalf of guide dog travelers doesn’t 
> hop on the chance to do so because it means disrespecting the parent organization.
> In my limited experience with the NFB and NAGDU, I have never seen 
> people defend other organizations or establishments the way the 
> training centers have been defended on this list in an instance of discrimination.
>
> As I said on a separate thread, the ADA technically allows for 
> discrimination. If people knew about it, fundamental alteration would 
> be thrown around the way freedom of religion and freedom of speech Are abused.
> What’s awful about US legislation is that we can use the law to 
> mistreat people and get away with it. We can restrict the freedoms 
> granted to others by exercising our own freedoms.
>
> Now, I and others have talked at length about what is damning about 
> the training centers guide dog policy. To make it short:
> 1.	The training centers restrict when and where students can use guide
> dogs in the building.
> 2.	 The philosophy at the training center fundamentally bars guide dog
> travel in the places and at the times they specify. It has nothing to 
> do with a safety or health risk, or an inability. It is about what 
> their philosophy considers to be the most favorable method of 
> independent travel, and their views of what is and what is not independence.
>
> Presenting my arguments in a way that strongly opposes others views or 
> is aggressive to some, doesn’t mean it was not a thoughtful response.
> I am passionate about the subject, and I could argue how and why my 
> messages are more thought out than others, but this isn’t a contest.
> I’m a biased judge anyway.
>
> The ADA has brought us far, but it needs further revision. Or not?
> Maybe that's the horrifying beauty of living here is that the law 
> protects you as it allows for your harm.
> --
> Raven
> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
> www.1am-editing.com
>
> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you 
> have or what you do.
>
> Naturally-reared guide dogs
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>
> On 9/3/15, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> 	I am reading messages that assert the policies of NFB training 
>> centers are discriminatory and in violation of the ADA. I am also 
>> hearing that NFB and NAGDU should be doing something about this. I 
>> would like to take up the second part of this first.
>>
>> 	Just within the past week I have been told by four people what they 
>> believe NAGDU should be doing. One of these people, who happens to be 
>> a leader within the organization, even seemed to assert it was my 
>> specific responsibility to do a thing. The other three were asked if 
>> they were members of NAGDU, though I already knew the answer to that 
>> question when I asked it! So, if the NFB or NAGDU are to do something 
>> about something, who is the NFB or NAGDU and to whom should this task 
>> be assigned. Just in case there is someone who doesn't know the 
>> answer to this question, the NFB and NAGDU are its members. It is not 
>> the president; it is not the board of directors; these individuals 
>> are simply the ones who conduct the business of the organization at 
>> the pleasure of the membership. The members are the ones who do the work.
>> Of course, the president and board of directors are members, too, and 
>> members first.to put it still another way, we have about
>> 350 subscribers to this list - a service and asset of the NFB and NAGDU.
>> How
>> many of these subscribers are NFB or NAGDU members?
>>
>> 	We get a number of calls each week from guide dog users needing 
>> assistance. Each of these individuals are asked if they are a member 
>> of the NFB, not because it makes a difference as to whether or not we 
>> will help them, but because it gives us a point of reference. A vast 
>> majority of those wanting our help have an array of excuses why they 
>> are not a member. They are willing to take advantage of our assets 
>> but unwilling to invest their own. So, to those of you subscribing to 
>> this list and taking advantage of our assets I ask, "Are you a 
>> member?" If not, you may want to take a few minutes and invest $5.00 
>> to do so. To become a member, simply visit
>>
>> http://nagdu.org/membership.html
>>
>> 	Now, let me take up the second part of this message - the assertion 
>> that the policies of the NFB training centers are discriminatory. If 
>> anyone intends to discuss this issue with someone from a training 
>> center, that person might want to formulate their argument first by 
>> gathering evidence to support their argument. Simply stating an 
>> opinion will not be sufficient or substantive. So, rather than 
>> respond to these assertions, I would be interested in learning more 
>> about how such policies are discriminatory and what provisions of the 
>> ADA or any other law or social policy supports  this assertion. 
>> Whenever someone asserts something is so, it is incumbent upon that 
>> person to demonstrate the validity of that assertion through the 
>> presentation of objective evidence; it is not up to another to prove 
>> it is not so. If one wishes to change social policy, it requires a 
>> sound, thoughtful argument supported by factual objective evidence. 
>> Only then can a person wishing to mount a counterpoint argument have 
>> the foundation on which to defend a position.
>>
>> 	I look forward to a thoughtful, factual, substantive discussion on 
>> this topic. I also look forward to learning that many of you have 
>> chosen to invest in our organization by paying your $5.00 dues!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>> President at nagdu.org
>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>
>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>
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--
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053

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