[NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes

Tue Apr 19 17:37:06 UTC 2016

Sandra and all,

Let's be careful not to dial this discussion up too much. I appreciate there
are people on this list who use, will always use and would never consider
using anything but a guide dog. However, canes do work and more people by
far use them than there are guide dog users. Also, there is a tremendous
amount of evidence that the longer canes are better and give better mobility
to their users.

I use a long cane and a dog, but not at the same time. I will state
emphatically that using a cane while learning the World Trade Center and New
York gave me knowledge that saved my life and the lives of others on
September 11. I will also say that using Roselle while running from Tower
Two also worked in ways a cane would never make possible.

We have choices and so do sighted people although they insist on only using
their eyes and not their other senses much while traveling. Take advantage
of all your options. 

Best Regards,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 9:18 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: S L Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
Subject: [NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes

Dan:

I have never been afraid to tell the whole truth.  I know in NFB it isn't
politically correct because they just love those ridiculously long canes
that are as tall or even taller than the person using them.  However, those
old sticks cannot keep a person from being hit by a car.  They cannot follow
a waiter who is guiding you to a table or a sales person who is helping you
in a store.  I I never have to go sighted guide because my dog will follow. 
There is just so much more a dog can do than a dumb stick.  Oh and I can
have the added enjoyment, pleasure and unconditional love my dog gives me in
addition to her excellent guide work.  I actually enjoy exploring new areas
with my guide dog.  It gives you a wonderful sense of freedom and
independence.  Yes, you might get lost but, no big deal, you can always stop
and ask for directions.  I have discovered some great little stores, coffee
shops and other places by just going out to explore.

Sandra

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:53 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Dan Weiner
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes

Good for you, Sandra, someone who actually tells it like it is.

Warmest regards,
Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:11 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: S L Johnson
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes

Hello:

Oh, I hate this topic.  It always makes my blood boil when people claim a
cane is better than a guide dog.  Are they completely stupid?  I have worked
in many unfamiliar areas both with a cane and with a dog.  I find the dog to
be much more soupier to the cane in an unfamiliar area.  You cannot ask your
cane to find curbs, steps, seats,elevators, check in or check out counters,
the bus entrance, doors, get you safely on and off a train  etc...  Anyone
who tells you a cane is better in unfamiliar places is just not telling you
the truth.  They obviously do not truly understand how a guide dog is
trained and how they work.  I love traveling in unfamiliar airports, hotels,
cities and have my dog find the things I ask her to find with confidence and
joy in her work.  As long as you give plenty of encouragement when your dog
is hesitant and then follow up with plenty of praise when the dog
successfully follows your commands, you should do just fine.  I never would
have traveled to many of the places I have been with my guide dogs in the
past 40 years if I had to do it with a cane.  After all, the cane is just a
useless stick and a guide dog is a very intelligent, highly trained capable
partner to ensure your safe travel.  No way is a cane better than a dog.
Come on folks, get real, the guide dog is the only way to be totally
independent without looking stupid swinging that dumb stick around.  Just
ask any sighted person observing us travel at our conventions.  They all say
the dog people get around much better than the canes and they don't trip up
all the people with the overly long canes.  Dogs are the best!!!

Sandra and Golden Retriever, Eva

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Weiner via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 10:49 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Dan Weiner
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes

I just think as everyone said, go ahead with whatever you feel comfortable
doing and don't pay attention to any nay-sayers.

I've met people who say they use the cane in unfamiliar environments, if it
works for them that's fine, though honestly I've found it is oof very little
use to go over an outdoor environment with a cane before I usee a dog. I've
sometimes gone over in door environments with a cane, say my office when I
was working to know every nok and cranny, every chair and so on, or maybe a
classroom.  But for travel basically it's the dog if I'm using a dog and
maybe a folding cane in my backpack if I really need to check something.

Warmest regards,

Dan the man, Parker the hound

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity
via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 10:38 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Julie McGinnity
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes

Hi all,

I agree with what's been said...  And I'll take it a step further...

We should expect that we will get lost with our dogs.  It will happen at
least once, if not multiple times.  And we must know how our dogs react to
this.  Of course, it is ideal to know exactly where we're going so that we
can give our dog clear directions, but navigating the world can be rather
like navigating life.  We do not always know where we're going, even when we
think we do.

So do you know how your dog reacts when you're lost.  My first dog would
work but got really stressed out.  My current dog probably thinks it's a
game and loves it because I ask him for more targets when I don't know
what's around me.  As long as I tell him he's a good boy, he's on board.  :)

These dogs should have the training to work with us under a majority of the
circumstances in which we find ourselves.  There is no reason we should be
afraid of working them in new environments or expect that we will always no
where we are headed when we're using our dogs.  If you feel more comfortable
with your cane in a new environment and wish to use it, then go for it.  But
if you would rather work the dog, or if you want your dog with you for the
rest of the travel involved in your plans, then excellent.  In the end,
Aleeha, you know yourself and your dog best, and that matters the most.

On 4/19/16, Star Gazer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> The dog should do what it's told, in that
your commands should be
> conveyed in a manner that is easy for you and that the dog can understand.
> Who is pushing back and why do you care? I mean, if it's the mail man, 
> it doesn't matter what he thinks, at least not in this situation. If 
> it's someone who trained the dog and is trying to excuse poor 
> training, then you need to decide what you'll do about it... not use a
dog? Get another dog?
> Get a dog from another school? Talk to the owner trainers to see what 
> suggestions they may have? You have a lot of options.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha 
> Dudley via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:41 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>
> Hey all,
> I'm writing to seek your opinion on something that I've been pondering 
> for a while. Do you guys find that it is reasonable to go to a brand 
> new city with your dog, get directions to go somewhere, and get there, 
> while still using the dog, even if the area is unknown? Am I wrong in 
> thinking that the dog should listen to what you need, and not have a 
> massive panic? I've gotten some push back from people on this and 
> wanted
to see your thoughts.
> Thanks
> Aleeha
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--
Julie A. McGinnity
President, National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division, Second
Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Missouri "For we walk by
faith, not by sight"
2 Cor. 7

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