[NAGDU] GDA and GDF was Leader and Leash Guiding

Star Gazer pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Thu Apr 21 13:25:31 UTC 2016 

				I think Lisa brings up a good point. It'd be like a car dealership telling you"Get a buddy to drive you before you drive that nice car you just bought". Nobody would agree to that. 

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa Belville via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 1:57 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Lisa Belville <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
Subject: [NAGDU] GDA and GDF was Leader and Leash Guiding

Danielle, You're wright.  They're very similar in some ways and vastly different in others.  I actually love hearing about other people's school experiences and different training equipment.

I knew switching schools would be a huge change.  I'd been with the GDF for almost 20 years, so I knew I was in for a change.  I mean, it's a different school, so I expected that. But the reality of dealing with it in a new place with a new dog was really unsettling at first.  <grin>

Probably 90% of the folks on this list aren't going to get this reference, but the best way to describe it was a little like the very early Saturday Night Live when they had this on going sketch called Bizarro World where they'd show a cube shaped earth rotating during the intro.  Everything was reversed, people said hello when they parted ways rather than goodbye, but it was still earth.  Corny, yes, but it was a little like that.

GDA's leashes feel very similar to GDF's only they're different colors.  My leash is black instead of brown, and I think the leather is a bit thinner, but I'm basing that off of Katy's old leash that's from 2006.  The length and construction are the same and we use it mostly the same way you guys do, making a long leash to get busy or using the hook in the middle to clip onto the upper most metal ring to make a wrist loop.  Oh, and everyone gets the same leash, no male or female sized leash for us.  <grin>

I think my harness is mostly white leather with a brown removable off set handle that detaches just like the GDF's does, and there's not as much reflective tape.  It's got the long pointy ears on top and it fastens with a large J clip on the dog's right side.  I don't think the leather between the front ears is as curvy as the GDF's, but that's something you really only notice if you use that part to carry your harness.

The original handle was a straight handle, but one of the trainers took pity on my GDF withdrawal and scrounged up an off set one.  This really made the Bizarro feelings kick in, because it was just like working a GDF dog and it really did make a difference for someone who's prone to stepping on her poor dog's feet.  LOL

I expected changes in training terms, but even some of the basic terms are the same like getting busy for uh, getting busy.

we Don't use About if we need to turn around, rather we just do two right turns in a row.

Otherwise, most of the training is very similar in that we use footwork to be sure we're lined up with our dog.  Body positioning is also stressed like for making turns or having the dog do a hard left turn.

The biggest changes for me were that there's no leash guiding and no harness correction.  I can live without leash guiding.  Paige has actually started doing it, and since I sort of remember how it feels, I can make sure we're doing it with some safety.  I just use it to go to our busy spot.  No leash guiding equals no straight line adjustment, so we don't walk in a nice straight line when leash guiding, and she doesn't do obstacle work and I'm not training her to do this.  I might down the road, but not now.

No harness correction was actually the hardest thing to get used to not having and it's the one thing I really miss even now.  Giving a solid flick while moving to fend off distraction and not slowing down or leaving our line of travel was awesome and just easier over all.  There's none of that at GDA and we don't have any kind of similar thing except to hold the leash in the right hand with the left and do a walking correction.

Oh, and we hold the leash differently than you guys do, we hold it against the harness handle in our left hand and we wrap our fingers around it and the harness, but we don't put the large top loop of our leash around our hand before picking up the harness.  I could always start holding the leash in the GDF way, but there's too much muscle memory right now, and I'm more prone to give poor Paige a harness correction with it.

One cool thing they did on Dog Day was to not announce anything about anyone's dog in the common area.  After lunch we all went to our own rooms and they brought our dogs to us in private.  It was completely suspenseful hearing people get their dogs and not knowing who got what dog or what its breed or gender was.  I didn't know I was getting a Yellow Golden Lab cross named Paige until Her trainer knocked on my bedroom door.

There are a few differences, but over all those are the big ones.  I really liked the school and the atmosphere.  It's smaller and less uh, corporate than the GDF.  Decisions about class policies were made in a matter of hours or minutes, and I'm sorry, that would never happen at the GDF now.

Lisa


Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com

Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a different one each day.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danielle Sykora via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Danielle Sykora" <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Leader and Leash Guiding


> Lisa,
>
> Exactly. I've used leash guiding to cross a simple one way street as 
> well as to walk short distances on my college campus where cars are 
> allowed to drive most of the places where people walk, but you're 
> definitely not going to use leash guiding to cross a six lane highway 
> or something. Complex is a somewhat relative term, so it's really up 
> to each handler to determine when leash guiding is or isn't going to 
> work for you and your dog.
>
> I find it interesting that you find GDF and GDA similar after having 
> dogs from both programs, because that's exactly what I thought when I 
> was trying to pick a school. I can't even imagine not having a dog 
> that leash guides at this point though.
>
> Danielle and Thai
>
> On 4/20/16, I via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Lisa,
>>
>> First off, I’m so glad you have a good dog, regardless of where you 
>> got her.
>>
>> Actually the position for leash guiding is closer to the dog’s 
>> shoulder than you would be for harness work. This is why we’ve 
>> discouraged the leash guiding across streets or in complex areas. You 
>> just don’t have the room to move with the dog for sudden movements.
>>
>> On 4/20/16, 10:18 AM, "NAGDU on behalf of Lisa Belville via NAGDU"
>> <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org on behalf of nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Yep, that's it, Danielle.
>>>
>>>I got my first two dogs from the GDF starting in 1996 and leash 
>>>guiding was
>>>
>>>always taught from day one.  The dog is in just about the same 
>>>position  when leash guiding as it is in harness, but you hold the 
>>>short leash just above the loop made by the clip attached to the 
>>>collar.
>>>
>>>Unless I'm mistaken, GDF no longer recommends leash guiding in 
>>>traffic or other really challenging areas because the information you 
>>>get from the dog
>>>
>>>on leash is not as good as that coming through the harness.  Most 
>>>body movements aren't as easy to feel and since the connection 
>>>between you and the dog is looser, you have less reaction time.
>>>
>>>My third dog is from GDA, and it was really hard adjusting to not 
>>>having leash guiding because the GDA equipment and many of their 
>>>techniques are so
>>>
>>>similar to the GDF's that I'd use GDF techniques instead.  At GDA we 
>>>take the dogs with us to dinner right from the get go and it was 
>>>confusing  having a leash that felt so similar and not being able to 
>>>use the dog to guide.
>>>
>>>Lisa
>>>
>>>
>>>Lisa Belville
>>>missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>
>>>Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a 
>>>different one each day.
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Danielle Sykora via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>Cc: "Danielle Sykora" <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 8:43 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Leader and Leash Guiding
>>>
>>>
>>>> GDF dogs are pretty much taught to guide just as well on leash as 
>>>> they do in harness. They aren't taught to heel at all, so they walk 
>>>> in a guiding position from day one. Puppies are either allowed to 
>>>> walk with a loose leash, or taught to moderate their pull so they 
>>>> put enough tention on the leash to effectively guide without 
>>>> dragging the handler or choking themselves. When the dogs are 
>>>> working in harness, you walk in the traditional approximately in line with the back legs position.
>>>> When leash guiding, you stand closer up toward the shoulders.
>>>>
>>>> I often use leash guiding when I take my dog out to relieve or to 
>>>> be groomed. It can be helpful in narrow spaces because walking 
>>>> further forward can sometimes make it easier for dogs to clear 
>>>> obstacles or you can hold the leash and walk behind the dog. I also 
>>>> tend to use leash guiding in other people's houses if I'm going to 
>>>> be there most of the day and don't really want to keep his harness 
>>>> on the whole time. Having your dog leash guide while wearing a flat 
>>>> collar is also one way you can run with your dog, though if you 
>>>> plan to run a lot a sports harness is probably the better option.
>>>>
>>>> Danielle and Thai
>>>>
>>>> On 4/20/16, Caitlyn Furness via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Lizzie,
>>>>>
>>>>> Most schools don’t teach formal leash guiding.  I think GDF might 
>>>>> be the only one who does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most schools don’t insist on a truely correct heel, either, so 
>>>>> most dogs
>>>>>
>>>>> are
>>>>> really leash guiding to a point, since they are not in a true heel 
>>>>> and are putting light tension on the leash.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully some GDF grads can speak up about how this works, and 
>>>>> when they use it..
>>>>>
>>>>> Cait
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:06 PM, Lisie Foster via NAGDU 
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello from me and my Golden boy!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a question about Leader Dogs and other schools who don't 
>>>>>> teach leash guiding (which I believe is every school except GDF).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read recently that Leader used to train their dogs to do some 
>>>>>> minimal leash guiding back in the late 70's or early 80's. I 
>>>>>> believe what I read said that their dogs were always taught to 
>>>>>> maintain a forward position, even on leash.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does Leader still teach their dogs to heel that way? Is that true 
>>>>>> that they used to do so? And, are there any schools that used to 
>>>>>> teach dogs to leash guide but no longer do? If so, why did they 
>>>>>> stop?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you! I'm really interested in this topic!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lisie and Finn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> lisiefoster at yahoo.com
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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