[NAGDU] Reasonable Accommodation was: Preferential Treatment was: Blanket Perception Against Advance Notice
Michael Hingson
mike at michaelhingson.com
Sat Dec 3 22:34:15 UTC 2016
Hi Sandra,
That all is fine and you should make the best choice you can. However, I
personally NEVER will sacrifice safety for what may or may not really be a
lot more comfort. If my guide truly could not go under the row in front of
me I would look for alternatives, but safety comes first. The airlines
preach that but usually when it comes to guide dogs they do not practice
what they preach.
Mike H.
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 10:26 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: S L Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Reasonable Accommodation was: Preferential Treatment
was: Blanket Persception Against Advance Notice
Michael:
I know it isn't a reasonable accommodation under the law. However, if the
airlines makes the decision to make this offer to me, I will not decline to
take advantage of it. Sometimes giving us better seats on a plane is just
common sense to allow you and your dog to be in a more comfortable place. I
know the dog will fit under the seat in front of me and I have done it many
times. Lately I have noticed the seats are much smaller with much less
space. Sometimes even your carry on bag will not fit under the seat so,
obviously a dog wouldn't fit. I don't mind moving to a place where she and
I will have more room. I particularly took advantage of moving up to first
class when an airline official observed my previous dog, Tara having
difficulty getting under under the seat in front of me. Tara had hip
dysplasia which made it uncomfortable for her to curl up. She retired
shortly after that flight but, I was grateful that the airline was so
considerate.
I have also been moved to better seats in theaters and concert halls where
my dog would have more room. In some instances my dog would have had to lye
on the stairs because she couldn't get under the seats in the balcony where
my ticket was. The theater manager decided that was a safety risk for my
dog as well as other people so he moved me downstairs to a safer place. Is
this reasonable accommodation under the law? Probably not but if having my
dog out in an isle or on the stairs is unsafe for her as well as the public,
then it is right to move us. Sometimes theaters and concert venues will
seat people with service dogs in the handicapped seating areas because there
is always plenty of room due to the spaces being big enough for wheelchairs
and walkers.
Sandra
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hingson via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 8:50 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Michael Hingson ; 'Buddy Brannan'
Subject: [NAGDU] Reasonable Accommodation was: Preferential Treatment was:
Blanket Persception Against Advance Notice
Hi all,
I am enjoying reading this thread as it discusses some very important issues
on which we all should ponder. I want to discuss the "reasonable
accommodation" portion.
Sandra says, "I am always very grateful when the airline moves me t a better
seat. That is much better than my dog being squished in a tight place and
the passenger sitting next to me complaining about having to be near a dog.
I consider that a reasonable accommodation." Actually, such is NOT a
reasonable accommodation at all under the law. A reasonable accommodation is
assistance or changes to a position or workplace that will enable an
employee to do his or her job despite having a disability. This is an ADA
oriented definition, but it will serve. We as guide dog users have proven
time and time again that our dogs can be "squished" into tight places. In
fact, I regularly travel as most of you know. I often do NOT get the joy of
sitting in first or business class. I back my dog into my seating row and
under the seat in front of me. I know of 100-pound guide dogs that are
trained to do the same thing. There is lots of room under the seats in front
of us and most guides will fit there.
If an airline offers any of us a wider seat or a seat in an higher class of
service we can choose to accept that offer or not, but it is not a
"reasonable accommodation". Rather, it is either a nice consideration by the
airline or it can be considered as preferential treatment as such offers are
not typically made to other passengers who also might benefit from the offer
such as an over-weight person. I have no problem considering an upgrade
offer since I am like anyone else in that I like what an higher class offers
me, but I do NOT need to move simply because of my guide dog. Moving because
of my guide sets a bad precedent and conveys the message that our dogs
really cannot fit in the more confining rows which can and has led to some
airline personnel making the assumption that if a more roomy seat is not
available then the airline people can try to bump us.
I do pre-board for the same reasons that Buddy, Sandra and others have
expressed. I pre-board not for my dog ,but rather to make life easier for
the passengers who will come behind me. I make it a point when accepting
pre-boarding to state for anyone nearby to hear that I know pre-boarding
will get us all out of the gate faster and that I want to make life as
convenient as possible for everyone else.
I also refuse to sit in a bulkhead row. Most of the time agents want to
stick me and Africa there, and I have to have a discussion with them. Of
course, they want to "give the dog as much room as possible". I point out
that the bulkhead rows are the most dangerous and unsafe rows on the
airplane for guide dogs. In the bulkhead row there is nothing to restrain
the dog should we be subjected to turbulents. We all have heard of incidents
this year where someone was not wearing their seatbelt or was standing in
the aisle when the aircraft bounced around due to unexpected turbulents.
Injuries occurred. Our guides are no different than these unrestrained
passengers if we permit our dogs to be in bulkhead rows. With proper
training our dogs will go under the space under the seats in front of us and
they will, in fact, usually feel more secure.
This Friday I will be flying to Miami. As usual I will be flying in coach
unless I get upgraded. Upgrades will probably not come unless my upgrade
request goes through. I am a frequent flyer and I always put in upgrade
requests simply because upgrades are given to frequent flyers if seating is
available. I will most likely have to suffer in coach, but I will bring on
my own food and feast while others eat the stale sandwiches provided for a
fee by the airlines. Africa will be quite happy in coach, but like me will
enjoy the upgrade should it come. Our upgrade will, however, not come
because of the dog, but rather only if our position on the upgrade list is
high enough. I ask for your prayers for an upgrade, but if upgrades do not
come fear not. We shall b happy anyway.
Best Regards,
Michael Hingson
The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
To order Michael Hingson's new book, Running With Roselle, and check on
Michael Hingson's speaking availability for your next event please visit:
www.michaelhingson.com
To purchase your own portrait of Roselle painted by the world's foremost
animal artist, Ron Burns, please visit http://www.ronburns.com/roselle
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raul A. Gallegos
via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 2:51 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Raul A. Gallegos <raul at raulgallegos.com>; Buddy Brannan
<buddy at brannan.name>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] [nagdu] Preferential Treatment was: Blanket Prosciption
Against Advance Notice
Buddy, thank you for putting this so elegantly. What I like to tell people
is that sometimes I do not wish to be on the clock. What I mean by this, is
that I am willing to educate people when they ask or say stupid or ignorant
things about blindness because of negative perceptions they may have for
their own reasons. However, sometimes I am plain tired, having a bad day, or
just not in the mood to deal with those kinds of attitudes. The end result
is I might react, wait for it, here it comes, just like a sighted person who
is asked a stupid question. The other day, Stacie and I were waiting for the
bus. This lady kept asking her questions about the dog. After about the
third or fourth question, she asks if the dog was hers. To me it would've
seemed like it would've made sense to ask that question from the very
beginning instead of can I pet your dog etc. Then, this lady, bless her
heart, asks me if I am Stacie's caregiver. Had I been, so called, on the
clock, I would've happily trying to educate her on how stupid the question
was and try to educate her on the fact that blind people can lead normal
lives, and we don't live in Holmes, and we can get out and have jobs etc.
however it was a late Sunday afternoon, I had had a few beers, it was hot
outside, and I just did not feel like educating her. So I asked her, what
kind of question was that? I said to her, you don't say that to people. She
still didn't get it. I admit that I kind of felt bad because I wondered if
she might have a negative perception of blind people in thinking that all of
us so called blind people are rude. However, I suspect that even had I try
to educate her, she would not have gotten it anyway. All I am trying to say,
is that I agree that sometimes when we assert ourselves it does not mean we
are being rude. It just means that we are being human.
--
Raul A. Gallegos
RGA Tech Solutions
Assistive Technology Trainer
Mobile: 832.554.7285
Work: 832.639.4477
Personal Email: raul at raulgallegos.com
Work Email: training at raulgallegos.com
b?oAny teacher that can be replaced with a computer, deserves to be.b? b?"
David Thornburg
> On Dec 2, 2016, at 4:12 PM, Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
> Yes, but there's rude, and there's rude. What some consider to be rude
> might actually be rude, but on the other hand, some people think that just
> asserting oneself and saying "no" is rude. Don't believe this happens? Try
> telling someone they can't pet your dog. There seems to be this perception
> that we are always cheerful, and should always be pleasant and accept
> whatever anyone deigns to offer us, all with good grace of course. We
> aren't allowed to say no, turn down assistance, or lead private lives
> while not being someone's sideshow freak. Oh yeah, and we're supposed to
> like it. Tell me I'm wrong. As for me, I reject this notion entirely. I
> demand my humanity, with everything that that implies, including the very
> reasonable need to sometimes have a bad day. That doesn't mean I will just
> be rude and nasty as a matter of course, but neither does it mean I'm
> going to plast on a happy face and tell you my life story just because you
> think I should.
>
> As to preferential treatment, everything has a cost. Sometimes it's worth
> the cost, and other times it is not. TANSTAAFL, you know.
>
> Bottom line, and in general, you can have equal, or you can have special,
> but you can't have both.
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 2, 2016, at 4:01 PM, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello:
>>
>> I am always very grateful when the airline moves me t a better seat.
>> That is much better than my dog being squished in a tight place and
>> the passenger sitting next to me complaining about having to be near
>> a dog. I consider that a reasonable accommodation. I feel the same
>> about preboarding. If they are willing to let me get myself and the
>> dog settled before the other passengers begin pushing and shoving
>> then I am all for it. I do not think in any it is demeaning to us as
>> blind people. It is no different than them allowing extra time for
>> someone using a walker or wheelchair. Let's get real, it does take
>> us a bit longer to get ourselves settled and avoiding the crowd is
>> much better, especially when people these days are so impatient and
>> likely to cause a fuss. I think many blind people are much too
>> sensitive to what some of you consider preferential treatment. If
>> you were a senior citizen who needed more time would you think it was
>> wrong to let them have it? no, you probably wouldn't. I think we
>> have to quit being so judgmental of others. If you do not want what
>> you consider as preferential treatment then politely decline it but
>> don't knock anyone else for taking it. Show appreciation for any
>> airline or any other public transportation or accommodation for being
>> kind enough to offer you a better place for you and your dog.
>> Changing the public attitude about blindness goes both ways. We
>> cannot insist on respect if we become rude whenever anyone tries to
>> be nice to us. One day many years ago I was in New York city. I was at
>> a very busy intersection waiting for the traffic light to change. I did
>> not know that signal was out of order until a person came up to me to
>> offer assistance.
>> That woman said she was very reluctant to offer assistance because
>> many times she had been yelled at by blind people when she offered to
>> help them.
>> She said she found blind people to be very rude and hostile.
>> Obviously this is not the image we want to give the public.
>> Therefore, if you do not want assistance or to take advantage of
>> other accommodations you don't think you deserve, then please decline
>> with extreme politeness and consideration.
>>
>> Sandra Johnson and Eva
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David via NAGDU
>> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 3:24 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: David
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] [nagdu] Preferential Treatment was: Blanket
>> Prosciption Against Advance Notice
>>
>> I think that comparison is a bit of stretch, Marion.
>>
>> If the regular seats would fit ordinary humans, I might consider it
>> preferential treatment, but since they don't, I think it is a
>> reasonable accommodation.
>>
>> I don't mind paying for adequate space, by the way, but I also don't
>> mind not being charged for it.
>>
>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>>
>>> On 12/2/2016 1:16 PM, Buddy Brannan via NAGDU wrote:
>>> This is a little like what we hear so many times about God giving us
>>> a keener sense of hearing or touch to compensate for our blindness.
>>
>>
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>
>
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