[NAGDU] Dispute resolution

Wed May 11 13:09:31 UTC 2016

Yes, probably and there is insurance to consider also.  I guess what I'm 
getting at is that signing a contract without reading the fine print and 
really thinking through what it means is a very bad idea. It also concerns 
me that only a few of the programs are comfortable with making the contract 
viewable by whomever wants to read it.  What's in there that is such a big 
secret?  Does it add to the mystery of guide dogs?  Would it upset the 
donors?  Is there something embarrassing or unethical in there?  My hunch is 
that there is nothing in the contracts that is truly a legal problem, but 
that it would create a public relations issue if there was too much 
attention drawn to it.  I don't know.  I probably will never know.  I do 
think about attending a program and have actually started that process a 
couple of times, but in the end I just can't do it.  I'll probably stick 
with owner training where I know what exactly I'm signing up for. But isn't 
that pretty much what we all do...stick with what we know?

Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now 
available! Get the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
-----Original Message----- 
From: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 7:59 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Tracy Carcione
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Dispute resolution

Hi Julie J.
I don't know what would happen if I got food poisoning, or whiplash from an
accident in a school van.  I think, if another student stole from me, or
spilled soda on my braille notetaker, then that person would be liable, not
the school.
Tracy

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. via
NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 11:01 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Julie J.
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Dispute resolution

Like I said before, I haven't read through many of the contracts, so I don't
know what's in there.  When people say there is a clause that they won't
hold the program liable for any damages, is that just related to the dog? or
does that include any aspect of the program?  What if there was a problem
with the food and someone got sick?  What if there was a car accident while
you were riding in the school van?  What if another participant stole things
from you or caused some other serious problem?  What if there was a building
fire and the alarm system was broken?

I'm honestly just curious.  Lots of things happen that aren't planned or
even thought of.  When the program says they aren't liable, what exactly
does this include? I'm sure there will be a million replies stating that the
program will always do the right thing, but do we *know* that?  If the
contract says they aren't liable, then they aren't responsible if you get
food poisoning, or whiplash in a car accident, or to replace your Braille
display because soda got spilled on it or any number of other things not dog
related.

I don't expect there is any answer to these ponderings.  I'm just tossing it
out there as food for thought.  So the next time you sign a contract, at a
guide dog program or anywhere else, perhaps it will help someone to think a
bit deeper about the meaning of what you are signing.

Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now
available! Get the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 8:45 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: NAGDU President
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Dispute resolution

Tracy,

The unfortunate part of what you say is that it is true. When we introduced
our resolution last year concerning ownership upon completion of training,
the resolution failed because many people falsely believe a training program
would not remove a dog without cause. This leads to a very convoluted
discussion of what constitutes cause and who has the authority to assess
such cause. Without ownership, a consumer has very little recourse.
Even with ownership, as is the case with Fidelco and Southeastern, the
contracts are so loaded in favor of the program that, I believe, a court
might rule in favor of a consumer should it be contested. Let me share what
I mean.

In the case of fidelco, their agreement says they transfer ownership, yet
state Fidelco has the right to repossess the dog at any time at their sole
and absolute discretion. Though I am not an attorney, I believe a court
would rule it cannot be both ways. Ownership carries with it certain rights,
one of which is the right to retain possession and not have that possession
interfered with unless there is a legally supported justification for such a
rescission of that ownership and cannot be done without due process.
Therefore, fidelco cannot repossess property at their sole and absolute
discretion, as this would be considered grand larceny un der the law.

As for the ownership with Southeastern guide dog, they mandate retirement at
age 10 or 11, I do not remember which. If a consumer chooses to work their
dog after that age, Southeastern has little recourse under the law. They
cannot remove the dog, as this would be considered larceny, as well. They
can repossess the harness but the consumer still has the ability to purchase
another harness and the right to work the dog.

Those who contend a training program would not remove a dog unjustly has not
been on my end of a telephone call with someone whose dog has been or is
being threatened with removal without cause. Perhaps if they would put
themselves in the places of these consumers or hear the pain I hear when I
tell them there is nothing that can be done because they do not own the dog,
perhaps they would change their minds!

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 8:29 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Tracy Carcione
Subject: [NAGDU] Dispute resolution

Julie J brought up dispute resolution yesterday, and I think it's an
interesting topic, and one that's often neglected.

I don't remember anything about dispute resolution in the contracts I've
signed, though I may have forgotten stuff.

I do remember signing something that said I can't hold the school
responsible for anything, pretty much.

The biggest dispute I can think of is a school saying a dog must retire or
be repossessed, and the user saying No.  I don't think, with most schools,
the user has any recourse, and I think that's a problem.  It doesn't come up
with TSE, since I own my dog, and, in the end, I say what happens, right or
wrong.

Tracy

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