[NAGDU] Textbook dogs, intelligence, and initiative (was Re: Apprentice Instructor)

Buddy Brannan buddy at brannan.name
Fri Aug 11 04:02:30 UTC 2017 

Agreed, Cindy, the trainers definitely know that a dog *has* to have a certain amount of initiative for this kind of work. I wasn't so much talking about trainer approaches or expectations as much as just my general thoughts about what Abby was saying...or my general thoughts on initiative and how to balance it. Sort of like how guide dog commands aren't really so much commands as requests. Like that forward doesn't mean forward, it means forward if you think it's a safe and not a terrible idea because there's a yawning deep hole in front of us. Mind you, I don't always remember this either, and then, sometimes you have to help the dog decide that its decision not to go forward isn't very compelling. 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
Phone: (814) 860-3194
Email: buddy at brannan.name



> On Aug 10, 2017, at 11:53 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I don't think for a moment that the trainers don't want the dogs to have
> initiative. I think mostly they train dogs and when we get them they are
> like a cake mix. We can add water and eggs, mix thoroughly, and bake and
> have the cake we want. We can frost it with some frosting or other, add
> ingredients to the cake, but it is still the basic cake. Sometimes the
> trainer can't imagine doing that with a dog, or heaven forbid a blind person
> trained it to do that, but many of the instructors if they are worth their
> salt will see that the dog is keeping you safe and will think about it more.
> You are learning to be a team and so to do that some have to do some things
> and some others. The person who completely trains his/her own dog is the
> person who decides to make an angelfood cake from scratch, separating 13
> eggs and beating the whites and then folding in the rest of the ingredients.
> And what pride there has to be in that in the end.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 10:11 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Textbook dogs, intelligence, and initiative (was Re:
> Apprentice Instructor)
> 
> Abby writes:
> 
> No! I actually don't want my dog to be "textbook perfect." I want her to be
> able to judge situations and be able to problem solve some things herself.
> 
> Isn't that interesting? Because that's exactly the sort of thing that you
> *want* in a guide dog. You want a dog that can, yes, take direction from a
> human but also has enough initiative, and enough intelligence to use that
> initiative, to make good decisions. 
> 
> I, too, expect a lot of my dog. I expect good behavior, and I expect her to
> be safe. I also expect her to follow my direction, but I want her to make
> decisions and have confidence in them. Sometimes, those two things are at
> odds. We're definitely a work in progress, and some people might think that
> "your dog needs a little more training", an assertion that I agree with in
> some situations. (I wish we had more car rides as a puppy, as she still
> wants to jump up and look out the window rather than staying laid down, and
> wants to get out of the car as soon as it stops...we're getting improvement
> there. Just one example.) 
> 
> I always say that Hilde sometimes has her own agenda. I might tell her
> "Forward", and she might think, "Yeah, but you know what, I think I'd really
> rather go left. That looks interesting." Some people might say, ohmigod, you
> call that trained? 
> 
> Here's the thing. As long as I can redirect her easily (and I can, 99% of
> the time with a gentle verbal reprimand), I'm fine with it, because I don't
> want to stifle her making a decision, taking initiative, and executing that
> decision with confidence. So we might have a discussion, where I say
> "Forward", she says "No, let's go left", and I say, "No, forward, really",
> and we go. Sometime, we might have that discussion, and she might explain to
> me that, stupid human, this time, I really did have a reason for going left,
> and this time it was a pretty good one. It's true that often as not, her
> reason is "just because", and I can tell the difference...most of the time,
> anyway. Sure, there are times when her head isn't in the game, too. But
> she's still young, and as my breeder tells me often, she's still maturing,
> and DDR lines often don't finish that until they're 3 or so. So really, for
> my purposes, I'm not so concerned that she follows my every instruction
> immediately, so long as we can discuss her decision (or mine) and come to a
> meeting of the minds about it. I think it's a fine line to walk, and I'm
> still learning to walk it after 21 years of dog handling. I expect I'll
> always be learning to walk it, too. I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed. 
> 
> 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
> Phone: (814) 860-3194
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:35 PM, Abby Bolling via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Julie. I have to say I agree with you. Christie is my favourite trainer
> from a school! And the reason is that when she sees a problem, she tries
> what's worked in the past. if that doesn't work, she will take the
> suggestions of the students into account. Apparently she has adapted some of
> the ways I was training Cricket to do other things, and is now using those
> techniques in her guide training.
>> 
>> 
>> Nick Abrahamson is a close friend of mine. he has trained his dog, Ruby,
> to do lots of tasks for him. He also trained his partners dog in mobility
> assistance. Now, the other really cool thing is that Nick and his partner
> can switch dogs! Strider can do Ruby's job and the other way around.
>> 
>> Nick has also been teaching me how to train Cricket to do other things
> too.
>> 
>> Nick had to owner train, because he couldn't find a school who would work
> with him being both Blind and Deaf. He is deaf, but he can vocalize, which
> throws a lot of people off. But, he still needs an ASL interpreter. I guess
> a lot of schools kind of went aaa at that.
>> 
>> "He can speak, why does he need an interpreter?" Speaking is not the same
> as hearing you morons!
>> 
>> 
>> Anyway, got on a tangent there. My p9oint is if Nick went to almost any
> school in this country, and showed them what ruby can do and how he trained
> her, he would be offered a trainer position in a heartbeat.
>> 
>> Only thing holding him back? The schools are not taking him seriously.
>> 
>> 
>> And now, on leaders job description for apprentice trainer, there is
> something that specifically describes exactly how much vision you have to
> have in order to be considered for the job... So, if someone has little to
> no periferal vision, they could be cut from the program on that basis
> alone...
>> 
>> My point, can we say discrimination anyone?
>> 
>> I am very disappointed in Leader for that description for employment
> change!
>> 
>> The reason I held leader to such a high standard when I thought about
> training guide dogs for others is that, when no other school would take a
> glance in my direction, leader gave me a chance. I definitely expected that
> philosophy to carry over to employment, but sadly, it hasn't... Yet!
>> 
>> 
>> We just have to make them see/believe that we can do it! that truly,
> blindness is not what holds us back!
>> 
>> 
>> And now that I feel like I've written a speech here, I'll leave you guys
> with this.
>> I've trained my dog to do things that Leader would not approve one of
> their dogs doing in a million years! But, she saved my life and got me help
> when I needed it because of what I taught her how to do.
>> My thought, take a behavior, and shape it with positive reinforcement, and
> turn it in to something you can use! Cricket can "Speak" on command as well
> as respond to a hand gesture for that same command. She has body checked
> someone out of the way so I can get up on the curb. She walks faster across
> intersections than most trainers like, and blows the up curbs because I just
> want to get my back end out of a street. Once we're up the curb, she stops,
> but I don't want to be in the street while I praise her! No thank you!
>> But all of those things are specific to me. I know personally, a trainer,
> who would be appalled at how my dog works, but she works for me, and she
> keeps me safe; gives me all the information I need (and sometimes more than
> I need) and we are a great team!
>> No! I actually don't want my dog to be "textbook perfect." I want her to
> be able to judge situations and be able to problem solve some things
> herself.
>> Example, I have some hearing damage, so if I can't hear the traffic,
> Cricket knows how to judge when it is safe to cross. this has been tested
> and re-tested several times. All I have to do with her is say "Tell me when
> it's safe!" and she does.
>> But it's things like that! Lots of trainers wouldn't trust anything like
> that, but my dog knows it and can do it with 100% accuracy
>> 
>> Anyway, the bottom line is, no, I do not have a training license, but the
> basic principles of the psychological laws of reinforcement are not hard to
> use. You just have to be willing to take the time to make it work.
>> 
>> A squeaky Abby and a sleepy Cricket
>> 
>> On 8/10/2017 8:09 AM, Wayne & Harley via NAGDU wrote:
>>> *Hello Julie, Rox, and Meghan if you're on this list too.
>>> I have to admit that when I originally approached Leader Dogs about
> apprenticing, that I hadn't completely flushed out the "Kool-Aid" from my
> system. *grin*
>>> It looks like I hadn't thought far enough outside of the "box".
>>> Thank you for this excellent food for thought.
>>> 
>>> Wayne And Harley D
>>> 
>>> *On 8/7/2017 8:16 AM, Julie Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> I have worked with two other people who were new to guide dogs.   Rox
> has also. Wayne has trained dogs for others.  Meghan trained my Jetta, then
> brought her here and helped me with getting started. I'm sure there are
> other blind people  that could be added to this list. In addition there are
> loads of owner trainers and blind people teaching cane travel. It's obvious
> that all the skills and techniques exist.  All we need is to put them all
> together in one place.
>>>> 
>>>> Training a guide dog is not rocket science.  It requires some knowledge,
> a ton of hard work and a decent amount of perseverance, but it is not
> exceptionally mentally complicated. There is too often this mystique around
> guide dog training. It's not any more magical than airplanes.  As long as we
> keep thinking its some kind of unexplained magic, we are never going to make
> any progress on entering the field of guide dog training.
>>>> 
>>>> I used to think brain surgery was kind of magical.  Then I met a couple
> of brain surgeons.  They are just regular people with a lot of education.
> Also they do not know everything, which was actually comforting to me.  It
> confirmed to me it's science, not magic.
>>>> 
>>>> Likewise, I've met and talked to a fair number of guide dog trainers
> over the years.  They are all just people.  They are knowledgeable,
> passionate about their work, and interested in learning new things.  However
> they do not have any magical powers.  Sometimes they are wrong or they
> change their minds about best practices in training.    They do not have all
> the answers for everything.  Again, it's reassuring to me that guide dog
> trainers approach problem situations the same way that I do. Address the
> most likely or obvious thing first and systematically try new solutions
> until you find something that works.
>>>> 
>>>> If you missed the NAGDU trainer talk segment, go and listen to the
> recording.  Excellent, excellent stuff.  The question from the audience
> about what to do for a dog who relieves on route was especially interesting
> to me.  The trainer suggestions were exactly what I've heard here and
> elsewhere from other handlers. We have the ability to problem solve and come
> up with solutions the same as professional trainers.
>>>> 
>>>> Again a blind person is not going to be able to pop into the job of a
> guide dog instructor exactly as it is now and be successful. There will
> definitely need to be some accommodations and alternative techniques used.
> It's likely that readers and drivers will be needed.  Some sort of two way
> headsets could be used to keep in constant communication.  A bell or other
> sound device could be temporarily added to the dogs harness to make it
> easier for the blind instructor to be aware of the dogs location. These are
> all just details though.  It's no different than any other job a blind
> person might do.
>>>> 
>>>> When starting every job I've ever had, including running my own
> business, I've not had all the answers when I started.  I've had to label
> things in Braille, hire drivers, figure out how to focus a projector,
> monitor children in a group, teach someone how to operate a kitchen
> appliance I'd never used before, navigate large buildings in other cities,
> use a hot cutter and so so many other things.  I think a new blindness
> challenge comes up pretty much daily.  Today's is taking pictures.   It's
> likely I'll take a lot of them before I get a system figured out and that's
> okay.
>>>> 
>>>> There are really only two obstacles to having blind people as guide dog
> instructors...first to the best of my knowledge and beliefs, none of the
> current programs are truly dedicated to making this happen.  It will take
> some time to figure out what works and what doesn't.  The blind person is
> going to have to have the opportunity to try, mess up and try again until
> the right set of alternative approaches are worked out.  That is the nature
> of trying new things.  It rarely, if ever, all comes together perfectly on
> the first try.
>>>> 
>>>> The second issue is blind people.  The sad truth is that there are a lot
> of blind people who believe that cane travel instructors have to be sighted
> to be safe, effective or legitimate.  Its clear that this same belief holds
> true at even the thought of a blind person as a guide dog instructor.  How
> can we expect any guide dog school to hire a blind instructor if the blind
> students are going to refuse to be trained by that person?   It is our
> beliefs that hold us back.
>>>> 
>>>> Fear is an interesting and powerful thing.   It is the one thing that
> can rule everything else.  Looking back I think the most important thing I
> got out of my sleepshade blindness training was the ability to feel fear and
> to do the thing anyway.  I've had discussions with sighted people who were
> very honest and sincere when they said to me that if they went blind they
> would be too afraid to do the things I do.  I can understand that.  If you
> don't understand the mechanics behind how blind people do things it probably
> does look scary, but once I explain they start to think about how it might
> be done, leaving the fear response behind.  That is what I hope for all
> blind people, that we can begin to think rationally about how a thing might
> be done instead of giving into the knee jerk response of fear.
>>>> 
>>>> Julie
>>>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
>>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
>>>> 
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
> 16046> 
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 4:23 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Buddy Brannan
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor
>>>> 
>>>> I call bullsh*t. They said the same thing about blind cane travel
> instructors, and we have loads of those now. Not to mention a number of
> owner trainers, and at least one blind person who has trained and placed
> guides for others.
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194
>>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 3:59 PM, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I do think the schools should consider hiring blind people as training
>>>>> assistants.  However, a blind person could not be a full instructor.
> The
>>>>> instructors have to be able to see what is happening with the students
> and
>>>>> dogs.  It would be a question of safety.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sandra
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 3:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Buddy Brannan
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor
>>>>> 
>>>>> GDB had a pilot program that they set up to fail once. Otherwise, none
> of
>>>>> the schools would even think about hiring a blind apprentice...they
> might
>>>>> then have to think about graduating one to a full instructor,
>>>>> and...well...we just can't have that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>> Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194
>>>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 1:27 PM, Haylie Gallacher via NAGDU
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyone know if any of the guide dog schools have ever hired a a blind
>>>>>> apprentice instructor?  If so, which ones?  I am thinking about being
> a
>>>>>> guide dog instructor is why I am asking.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Haylieof
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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>> 
>> -- 
>> Abigail M. Bolling
>> Wright State University-2018: Rehabilitation Services
>> Phone: (513) 512-3456
>> Email: bolling.8 at wright.edu
>> Abilities United: Secretary
>> Ohio Association of Guide Dog Users, a chapter of the National Federation
> of the Blind of Ohio: Secretary
>> "keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart, and just let the
> music play." (Julie Anderson-Diamond)
>> "Dance like no one is watching, love like you'll never be hurt, sing like
> no one is listening, and live like it's Heaven on earth." (William Purkey)
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the
> expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles
> between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want;
> blindness is not what holds you back.
>> 
>> 
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