[NAGDU] Service dog license

[d m gina]

The card that I have from pilot has a picture and the writing on the card.
It is also laminated. It is large so I have to put it in a different 
place in the wallet where it does fid.
Original message:
> The Seeing Eye has cards, but I don't know if they have state laws on, which
> ADA trumps, or has the ADA thing, too. The ones I had were about the size of
> a business card. I would say, too, that this has been a lovely and
> respectful discussion.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy VanderBrink
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink <vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license

> Hey folks,

> Thanks for the lively but respectful discussion - I was nervous about asking
> that question.

> Sounds like there's no good way to prove our cases in situations where we're
> challenged.

> If the text from Ada is put on a card, isn't it very small?

> I haven't been asked in quite a while - minus Uber's but that's a different
> conversation I'd wager.

> Thank you all for humoring me and my questions.

> Nancy & Doc, SEGD '09
> Sent from my iPhone

>> On Feb 12, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Wayne & Harley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:

>> *Hi Julie and Nancy,
>> Julie, according to the wording in this bill, Assistance Dogs
> International ( ADI ) would be given the monopoly on accrediting, not just
> Service Animal training programmes in Illinois (there are a very few of them
> in Illinois, but  NONE of them are Guide Dog training programmes ), but the
> Service Animals themselves. This bill also enshrines ADI's standards as THE
> standards to be followed. This also must to be pointed out, Owner Trainers
> are anathema to ADI. Due, in large part, it is suspected, because of money.
> Every successfully trained Owner Trained Service Animal means thousands, or
> tens of thousands of dollars that would not be going into the coffers of ADI
> accredited programmes.
>> Nancy, may I point out that Guide Dog Owners are a very small, let's say
> minuscule, minority within the Service Animal Owning community. Heck,
> programme trained dogs for Service modalities other than Guiding are also a
> small fraction of the Service Animal Owner Community. The VAST majority of
> Service Animal Owners choose to Owner Train, privately train in tandem with
> Owner Training, or privately train. There are quite a few reasons for that.
> The biggest reason, from what I've learned from speaking with Service Animal
> Owners whose dogs perform non-guide Service work,  is that the non-guide dog
> programmes don't, and can't cover all the permutations of disability that
> exist, they have long, long waiting lists, or they charge thousands, or tens
> of thousands of dollars for a dog.

>> CAVEAT: Your Mileage May Vary,


>> Wayne And Harley

>> *On 2/12/2017 5:23 AM, Julie Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Nancy,

>>> I appreciate your sincerity in wanting to address the situation. I am
> also glad you are open to learning why this might or might not work.

>>> First, who decides what programs are accredited?  The programs
> themselves? The government?  Some other organization?  Who pays for this?
> There is no single accreditation entity for all guide, service, hearing,
> diabetic, psychiatric dog programs.  Would some of the programs be
> accredited and other types of disabilities would be out of luck?

>>> Currently the laws in the U.S. state that a dog has to be individually
> trained to mitigate the handler's disability.  There is no mention of a
> program needing to do this training or the person needing to prove their
> disability.  In order to have an ID of some variety, you would not only need
> to list the dog, but the person would need to prove their disability.  As
> blind people we don't really find this to be a problem, but what about other
> disabilities.  I'm thinking those with a strong social bias like dogs who do
> psychiatric tasks or seizure alert.   Who decides what is a disability?
> Currently people self identify and in the case of a legal situation a judge
> decides if a disability is in fact present.  If we had to have ID's there is
> going to be a seriously long line for disability confirmations.  I have had
> it proposed that doctor's be the contact to determine disability and I think
> this is a very bad idea.  Doctor's understand the medical aspects of disease
> and disability, but they do not understand the legal side of the issue,
> which is what is needed in this situation.

>>> Then we get to the people who do not go through a program for their dogs.
> When it comes to programs for guide dogs, blind people have it made.  We
> have a wide selection of very low cost options with not too bad waiting
> lists.  That is not the case with every other type of disability.  The
> number of programs compared to the number of applicants is low, making for
> long waiting lists. Frequently these programs charge large sums of money, in
> the thousands or tens of thousands, for their dogs.  This means there are a
> large number of people with disabilities that choose to owner train or have
> a dog privately trained faster and for less money.  This also allows for a
> greater flexibility in what training is provided, making the owner trained
> dog much more customized to the owners particular disability needs. So who
> accredits these folks?

>>> Then we get to the part that irritates me the most about the ID issue,
> well one of the parts anyway.  Why would the entire program be accredited
> instead of each individual team?  That feels like we are giving the program
> a free pass to slide through some dogs who are a little rough around the
> edges. We've all encountered program dogs who were not pleasant and the
> handler couldn't or wouldn't do something to address the situation.  If we
> are going to do this ID thing, then folks who owner train and those who have
> program dogs must be treated equally.

>>> I also agree wholeheartedly with Daryl about what she said about when
>>> a driver's license is shown vs. when this dog ID would be shown.  A
> Driver's License is never a condition of access.  You aren't asked for it
> when entering the grocery store, when you get in the car or when you sit
> down in the restaurant.  It can be used as proof of age or residency, but
> never as a condition of public access.  Requiring a different standard of
> community access for disabled people is highly discriminatory.

>>> And yes, I owner train my dogs or in the case of the last one, had her
> privately trained.  I'm very happy with that choice and don't see myself
> changing anytime soon.


>>> Julie
>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog
>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Daryl via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:53 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Daryl
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license

>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big problems
> with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service dogs
> targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information. Yes, to drive
> a car you need a license. But you are only requested for that license if you
> are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses to owner train their dog,
> or if they're disability makes owner training the only viable option, they
> are at a distinct disadvantage.

>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hey guys,
>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't understandsomething...

>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>>> picture taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could
>>>> not be something like that but for us with our dog?

>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure these
>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>>> wonder if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>>> official wouldn't that make it easier?

>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>>> sense to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your
>>>> partner in it that way?

>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>>> really understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need
>>>> for privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>>>> there why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think
>>>> that if they could get accredited schools in a database and then the
>>>> DMV could choose the school you went to given on some sort  of
>>>> letter or something, why is that bad???

>>>> Just trying to understand.

>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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