[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Sat Jan 7 23:56:03 UTC 2017

I don't disagree with any of these assertions, but playing devil's advocate for a second...

OK, first, so what if the school owns the harness? They certainly can, it has their name on it, and we all know there's nothing magic about working gear. I really have no objection to this provision myself; after all, the harness doesn't make the dog. Now to the real thing...

OK, I'm also no lawyer. But what about a different comparison for owneship? Again, I should stress that I am all for us having full and complete ownership of our dogs upon graduation. I'd settle for same after a reasonable probationary period if I must, but it isn't my preference, though I understand why it might be a thing, if we're talking about making sure that the match is really going to work out. After all, if there are going to be problems, most of them will show up soonish. So with that out of the way, a different comparison.

Let's say you buy a home. Or to make it easier, let's say you buy a condo, although homes in housing developments often end up with similar things. OK, so you buy this home, and as a condition of the purchase, you have to sign a contract that includes certain covenants, conditions, and restrictions. These are unfortunately becoming more common as time goes on. You'll get things like, your home has to meet certain aesthetic requirements. You can't paint it other than specific colors. You can't have plants further than a certain distance from the street. You can't have antennas of any kind, apart from a small direct broadcast satellite, above a certain height, if you can have them at all. (These things are a real thorn in the side of lots of ham radio operators.) Any variances must be approved by the homeowner's association board, who is the final and sole arbiter of such variances. No sign, no home. And if you are caught violating any of these conditions, you can have fairly severe fines for doing so. And it's all legal, unfortunately. In the name of, I think they say, neighbrohood aesthetics, or keeping property values high, or any number of things. 

How do these sorts of conditions differ in reality from the conditions of "conditional ownership" in guide dog contracts? 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194 
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name

> On Jan 7, 2017, at 6:29 PM, NAGDU President via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Cindy,
> 
> 	First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion
> and am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other party has
> the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide the question. My
> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of  ownership
> agreement to court, the court might question whether the other provisions of
> the agreement are congruent with property rights law. In other words, if you
> own some property, can anyone place restrictions on the use of such
> property? Except for property given in consideration of the fulfillment of a
> future contract, such as the giving of an advance for an appearance or the
> giving of an engagement ring for the fulfillment of a contract of marriage,
> property rights are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the
> guide dog training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership does
> not reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
> change the oil regularly.
> 
> 	While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone
> ever bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
> reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for any
> reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that is found
> in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.
> 
> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the  
> harness furnished to the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property
> of SEGDI. In the event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being put to
> proper use, SEGDI reserves the right to  require its immediate return. Also,
> at the time of retirement of  the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion, the
> Dog is no longer  suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness shall be
> returned  to SEGDI immediately. At no time is the Graduate permitted to
> sell, lend or retain the harness once the Dog has retired.  
> 
> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI. How
> much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you or someone
> you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training program because they
> feared having the dog or the harness taken away because the program  may
> believe, in their sole opinion and discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need their
> oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having their dog
> repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some of those
> ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had better follow-up!
> 
> 	Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else can
> drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who wanted to
> know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my previous dogs. I
> wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he is a lot to handle. I
> was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or Louiza from me because of this
> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him, the
> program could remove him for this! How ludicrous! 
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the owner
> policy? It was apparently not in place before?
> 
> Cindy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> David,
> 
> 	I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching, I
> could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
> provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's we
> have signed!
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions
> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by a law
> school dropout, perhaps?
> 
> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> 
> 
> 
> 
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