[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Sun Jan 8 01:24:53 UTC 2017

GDF does not have a five year health clause, unless this is something
that has been added within the last two years without my knowledge.

GDF, GDA, Freedom, and TSE do all provide unconditional ownership, and
I believe Pilot may as well.

I think ownership is extremely important and I personally would not go
to a program that did not give unconditional ownership; however, I do
understand the programs retaining ownership of the harness. It has
their name on it typically, so if they do not like how you are
working/handling your dog, they can make sure they are not obviously
being misrepresented. In such a situation, the handler would still be
able to keep their dog and work with a different harness if desired. I
think this is a much better alternative then retaining ownership of
the dog, though I wouldn't have any problem being able to keep the
harness either.

Danielle and Thai

On 1/7/17, Brenda via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I think Guide Dog foundation grants ownership at completion of program,
> but isn't there something about they can reclaim the dog within 5 years
> if the handler is unable to work or dies?    I hope I'm wrong, but this
> is another facet of the ownership conversation.  Do other schools that
> grant ownership have a 5-year health clause?
>
>
> Using the car analogy - If my husband dies, I get to keep his car if I
> want. If he can no longer drive he gets to keep his car.  A dog is more
> than just an inanimate object.  Imagine losing your blind family member
> and then having to give up another part of the family or imagine
> becoming too sick to handle your guide and then having to give  up this
> companion that you have developed a bond with.
>
>
> I am very glad that NAGDU is addressing the guide dog ownership issue.
> Maybe in a few years when I am in a position to apply for a dog it will
> be resolved.
>
>
> Brenda
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/7/2017 6:44 PM, Dan Weiner via NAGDU wrote:
>> Well I think the less restrictions the better, if any school doesn't
>> trust
>> it's grads than maybe they shouldn't give dogs to such grads--lol.
>> Now as far as I know, the schools that grant transfer of title or
>> ownership
>> on graduation are the Seeing Eye, Guide Dogs of America, Freedom Guide
>> Dogs,
>> and Guide Dog Foundation, am I missing anyone? I do like keeping track of
>> it
>> as I really do only want to receive services for a program that gives
>> ownership.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dan W.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 6:37 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
>>
>> Oh, I think the discussion is good. You stated the ages to which you had
>> worked your dogs. I was wondering about mandatory retirement at eleven.
>> Maybe you didn't get all of your dogs from Southeastern? If not then the
>> question might not be valid.
>>
>> TSE has the thing about the harness in their contract; they don't as I
>> recall have anything in it about their decision as to when the dog must
>> be
>> deemed unfit. So far they have left it up to me, and they don't police
>> the
>> harnesses unless they see someone selling one on EBay, such as in the
>> case
>> of family selling the harness of a deceased relative. I have always
>> returned
>> harnesses, but though they say they remain the property of the school, I
>> have never been told "Now you've retired your dog you must return that
>> harness." They don't even know I've retired Fisher. They don't have in
>> there
>> to my knowledge that you can't work someone's dog, but I do think they
>> take
>> a dim view of it. However, when we told them I had worked Chuck's dog,
>> they
>> never made a deal of it. I might need to look at that contract as well.
>> Cindy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>> President
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:29 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
>>
>> Cindy,
>>
>> 	First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion
>> and am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
>> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
>> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
>> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other party
>> has
>> the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide the question.
>> My
>> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of
>> ownership
>> agreement to court, the court might question whether the other provisions
>> of
>> the agreement are congruent with property rights law. In other words, if
>> you
>> own some property, can anyone place restrictions on the use of such
>> property? Except for property given in consideration of the fulfillment of
>> a
>> future contract, such as the giving of an advance for an appearance or
>> the
>> giving of an engagement ring for the fulfillment of a contract of
>> marriage,
>> property rights are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the
>> guide dog training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership
>> does
>> not reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
>> change the oil regularly.
>>
>> 	While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone
>> ever bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
>> reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for any
>> reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that is
>> found
>> in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.
>>
>> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the harness furnished
>> to
>> the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property of SEGDI. In the
>> event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being put to proper use,
>> SEGDI
>> reserves the right to  require its immediate return. Also, at the time of
>> retirement of  the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion, the Dog is no
>> longer
>> suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness shall be returned  to SEGDI
>> immediately. At no time is the Graduate permitted to sell, lend or retain
>> the harness once the Dog has retired.
>>
>> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI. How
>> much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you or
>> someone
>> you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training program because they
>> feared having the dog or the harness taken away because the program  may
>> believe, in their sole opinion and discretion, you didn't deserve the
>> dog?
>> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
>> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need their
>> oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having their
>> dog
>> repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some of those
>> ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had better
>> follow-up!
>>
>> 	Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
>> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else can
>> drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who wanted to
>> know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my previous dogs. I
>> wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he is a lot to handle.
>> I
>> was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or Louiza from me because of
>> this
>> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him, the
>> program could remove him for this! How ludicrous!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
>> of
>> the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people
>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
>> holds
>> you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>>
>> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the
>> owner
>> policy? It was apparently not in place before?
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>> President
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>>
>> David,
>>
>> 	I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
>> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching,
>> I
>> could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
>> provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's
>> we
>> have signed!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
>> of
>> the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people
>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
>> holds
>> you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions
>> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by a
>> law
>> school dropout, perhaps?
>>
>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
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