[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

NAGDU President blind411 at verizon.net
Sun Jan 8 19:32:28 UTC 2017 

	I was told by a Pilot representative that they do transfer ownership
upon completion of training. I believe I may have also seen a Pilot
agreement, though not one sent by them to confirm this. I believe we will
learn much more about the training program's view of blind consumerism when
I write to tehm requesting copies of their agreements to post onour website.

Fraternally yours,
Marion



Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG


The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
you back.


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora
via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 8:25 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Danielle Sykora
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

GDF does not have a five year health clause, unless this is something that
has been added within the last two years without my knowledge.

GDF, GDA, Freedom, and TSE do all provide unconditional ownership, and I
believe Pilot may as well.

I think ownership is extremely important and I personally would not go to a
program that did not give unconditional ownership; however, I do understand
the programs retaining ownership of the harness. It has their name on it
typically, so if they do not like how you are working/handling your dog,
they can make sure they are not obviously being misrepresented. In such a
situation, the handler would still be able to keep their dog and work with a
different harness if desired. I think this is a much better alternative then
retaining ownership of the dog, though I wouldn't have any problem being
able to keep the harness either.

Danielle and Thai


On 1/7/17, Brenda via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I think Guide Dog foundation grants ownership at completion of 
> program, but isn't there something about they can reclaim the dog within 5
years
> if the handler is unable to work or dies?    I hope I'm wrong, but this
> is another facet of the ownership conversation.  Do other schools that 
> grant ownership have a 5-year health clause?
>
>
> Using the car analogy - If my husband dies, I get to keep his car if I 
> want. If he can no longer drive he gets to keep his car.  A dog is 
> more than just an inanimate object.  Imagine losing your blind family 
> member and then having to give up another part of the family or 
> imagine becoming too sick to handle your guide and then having to give  
> up this companion that you have developed a bond with.
>
>
> I am very glad that NAGDU is addressing the guide dog ownership issue.
> Maybe in a few years when I am in a position to apply for a dog it 
> will be resolved.
>
>
> Brenda
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/7/2017 6:44 PM, Dan Weiner via NAGDU wrote:
>> Well I think the less restrictions the better, if any school doesn't 
>> trust it's grads than maybe they shouldn't give dogs to such 
>> grads--lol.
>> Now as far as I know, the schools that grant transfer of title or 
>> ownership on graduation are the Seeing Eye, Guide Dogs of America, 
>> Freedom Guide Dogs, and Guide Dog Foundation, am I missing anyone? I 
>> do like keeping track of it as I really do only want to receive 
>> services for a program that gives ownership.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dan W.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray 
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 6:37 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
>>
>> Oh, I think the discussion is good. You stated the ages to which you 
>> had worked your dogs. I was wondering about mandatory retirement at
eleven.
>> Maybe you didn't get all of your dogs from Southeastern? If not then 
>> the question might not be valid.
>>
>> TSE has the thing about the harness in their contract; they don't as 
>> I recall have anything in it about their decision as to when the dog 
>> must be deemed unfit. So far they have left it up to me, and they 
>> don't police the harnesses unless they see someone selling one on 
>> EBay, such as in the case of family selling the harness of a deceased 
>> relative. I have always returned harnesses, but though they say they 
>> remain the property of the school, I have never been told "Now you've 
>> retired your dog you must return that harness." They don't even know 
>> I've retired Fisher. They don't have in there to my knowledge that 
>> you can't work someone's dog, but I do think they take a dim view of 
>> it. However, when we told them I had worked Chuck's dog, they never 
>> made a deal of it. I might need to look at that contract as well.
>> Cindy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU 
>> President via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:29 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
>>
>> Cindy,
>>
>> 	First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion 
>> and am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are 
>> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate, 
>> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an 
>> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other 
>> party has the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide 
>> the question.
>> My
>> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of 
>> ownership agreement to court, the court might question whether the 
>> other provisions of the agreement are congruent with property rights 
>> law. In other words, if you own some property, can anyone place 
>> restrictions on the use of such property? Except for property given 
>> in consideration of the fulfillment of a future contract, such as the 
>> giving of an advance for an appearance or the giving of an engagement 
>> ring for the fulfillment of a contract of marriage, property rights 
>> are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the guide dog 
>> training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership does 
>> not reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it 
>> or change the oil regularly.
>>
>> 	While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone 
>> ever bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the 
>> keys. We reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time 
>> and for any reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's 
>> agreement that is found in nearly every guide dog training program's 
>> agreement.
>>
>> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the harness 
>> furnished to the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property 
>> of SEGDI. In the event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being 
>> put to proper use, SEGDI reserves the right to  require its immediate 
>> return. Also, at the time of retirement of  the Dog, or if, in 
>> SEGDI's sole opinion, the Dog is no longer suitable for work as a 
>> guide dog, the harness shall be returned  to SEGDI immediately. At no 
>> time is the Graduate permitted to sell, lend or retain the harness 
>> once the Dog has retired.
>>
>> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI. 
>> How much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you 
>> or someone you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training 
>> program because they feared having the dog or the harness taken away 
>> because the program  may believe, in their sole opinion and 
>> discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
>> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start 
>> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need 
>> their oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear 
>> having their dog repossessed because of some minor infraction, 
>> perhaps some of those ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so 
>> if they had better follow-up!
>>
>> 	Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting 
>> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else 
>> can drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who 
>> wanted to know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my 
>> previous dogs. I wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he is
a lot to handle.
>> I
>> was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or Louiza from me because 
>> of this
>> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him, 
>> the program could remove him for this! How ludicrous!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>> Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind 
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>> not what holds you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray 
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>>
>> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the 
>> owner policy? It was apparently not in place before?
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU 
>> President via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>>
>> David,
>>
>> 	I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much 
>> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being 
>> over-reaching, I could not agree more. Many guide dog training 
>> programs have similar provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all 
>> need to look at the one's we have signed!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>> Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind 
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>> not what holds you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via 
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions 
>> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by 
>> a law school dropout, perhaps?
>>
>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon
>> .net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
>> om
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cn
>> c.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bjnite%40windstrea
>> m.net
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.c
> om
>

_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net

More information about the NAGDU mailing list