[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Sun Jan 8 15:07:14 UTC 2017

There is no 5-year health claus in the GDF ownership contract. 

there is also language in said contract that states that a dog may only be removed, if the graduate has full ownership, through a third party. this would typically be a court or other legal system.
> On Jan 7, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Dan Weiner via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Well I think the less restrictions the better, if any school doesn't trust
> it's grads than maybe they shouldn't give dogs to such grads--lol.
> Now as far as I know, the schools that grant transfer of title or ownership
> on graduation are the Seeing Eye, Guide Dogs of America, Freedom Guide Dogs,
> and Guide Dog Foundation, am I missing anyone? I do like keeping track of it
> as I really do only want to receive services for a program that gives
> ownership.
> 
> Cordially,
> Dan W.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 6:37 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
> 
> Oh, I think the discussion is good. You stated the ages to which you had
> worked your dogs. I was wondering about mandatory retirement at eleven.
> Maybe you didn't get all of your dogs from Southeastern? If not then the
> question might not be valid.
> 
> TSE has the thing about the harness in their contract; they don't as I
> recall have anything in it about their decision as to when the dog must be
> deemed unfit. So far they have left it up to me, and they don't police the
> harnesses unless they see someone selling one on EBay, such as in the case
> of family selling the harness of a deceased relative. I have always returned
> harnesses, but though they say they remain the property of the school, I
> have never been told "Now you've retired your dog you must return that
> harness." They don't even know I've retired Fisher. They don't have in there
> to my knowledge that you can't work someone's dog, but I do think they take
> a dim view of it. However, when we told them I had worked Chuck's dog, they
> never made a deal of it. I might need to look at that contract as well.
> Cindy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:29 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
> 
> Cindy,
> 
> 	First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion
> and am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other party has
> the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide the question. My
> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of  ownership
> agreement to court, the court might question whether the other provisions of
> the agreement are congruent with property rights law. In other words, if you
> own some property, can anyone place restrictions on the use of such
> property? Except for property given in consideration of the fulfillment of a
> future contract, such as the giving of an advance for an appearance or the
> giving of an engagement ring for the fulfillment of a contract of marriage,
> property rights are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the
> guide dog training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership does
> not reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
> change the oil regularly.
> 
> 	While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone
> ever bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
> reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for any
> reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that is found
> in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.
> 
> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the harness furnished to
> the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property of SEGDI. In the
> event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being put to proper use, SEGDI
> reserves the right to  require its immediate return. Also, at the time of
> retirement of  the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion, the Dog is no longer
> suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness shall be returned  to SEGDI
> immediately. At no time is the Graduate permitted to sell, lend or retain
> the harness once the Dog has retired.  
> 
> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI. How
> much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you or someone
> you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training program because they
> feared having the dog or the harness taken away because the program  may
> believe, in their sole opinion and discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need their
> oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having their dog
> repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some of those
> ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had better follow-up!
> 
> 	Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else can
> drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who wanted to
> know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my previous dogs. I
> wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he is a lot to handle. I
> was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or Louiza from me because of this
> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him, the
> program could remove him for this! How ludicrous! 
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the owner
> policy? It was apparently not in place before?
> 
> Cindy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> David,
> 
> 	I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching, I
> could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
> provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's we
> have signed!
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions
> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by a law
> school dropout, perhaps?
> 
> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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