[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
d m gina
dmgina at sero.email
Wed Jan 11 20:53:02 UTC 2017
You go man you go.
I love it.
Keep up the swell work.
Original message:
> Julie,
> As you state, disputing a contract is a civil matter and this could
> cost a great deal of money. This being said, if consumers would quit
> allowing guide dog training programs to repossess their dogs requiring them
> to do so through a civil proceeding that would cost the program, perhaps
> they would quit coercing blind people into submission! We intend to pursue
> this matter and put the programs on notice we will stand for their
> paternalistic behavior!
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 5:45 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Julie J.
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
> Buddy,
> Can they take your home away? or is it just the fines?
> Is there a process of warnings, a hearing of some sort and then finally an
> action? Is there an appeal process?
> I don't live in a home owners association, but I suspect I know the answers
> to these questions. And I think that's what the significant difference is
> to how the guide dog programs operate. For me it's not the specific words
> in the contract, but the actions that demonstrate their values. Actions
> speak louder than words. When a program instructs, endorses or supports
> it's employees to act in a manner that demeans or devalues blind people, I'm
> taking a pass. A good contract with a strong ownership agreement is a good
> first step, but it has to be followed by solid actions that reflect what
> they've said in the contract.
> In the end the violation of a contract is a civil matter that will require a
> lawyer, loads of money and even more time. Meanwhile the program has the
> dog. Not too many blind people have the resources to pursue a case like
> this in court and I suspect the programs know it, which brings us around to
> my previous point. What the program does is more important than what they
> say they are going to do on a piece of paper.
> Julie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 5:56 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
> I don't disagree with any of these assertions, but playing devil's advocate
> for a second...
> OK, first, so what if the school owns the harness? They certainly can, it
> has their name on it, and we all know there's nothing magic about working
> gear. I really have no objection to this provision myself; after all, the
> harness doesn't make the dog. Now to the real thing...
> OK, I'm also no lawyer. But what about a different comparison for owneship?
> Again, I should stress that I am all for us having full and complete
> ownership of our dogs upon graduation. I'd settle for same after a
> reasonable probationary period if I must, but it isn't my preference, though
> I understand why it might be a thing, if we're talking about making sure
> that the match is really going to work out. After all, if there are going to
> be problems, most of them will show up soonish. So with that out of the way,
> a different comparison.
> Let's say you buy a home. Or to make it easier, let's say you buy a condo,
> although homes in housing developments often end up with similar things. OK,
> so you buy this home, and as a condition of the purchase, you have to sign a
> contract that includes certain covenants, conditions, and restrictions.
> These are unfortunately becoming more common as time goes on. You'll get
> things like, your home has to meet certain aesthetic requirements. You can't
> paint it other than specific colors. You can't have plants further than a
> certain distance from the street. You can't have antennas of any kind, apart
> from a small direct broadcast satellite, above a certain height, if you can
> have them at all. (These things are a real thorn in the side of lots of ham
> radio operators.) Any variances must be approved by the homeowner's
> association board, who is the final and sole arbiter of such variances. No
> sign, no home. And if you are caught violating any of these conditions, you
> can have fairly severe fines for doing so. And it's all legal,
> unfortunately. In the name of, I think they say, neighbrohood aesthetics, or
> keeping property values high, or any number of things.
> How do these sorts of conditions differ in reality from the conditions of
> "conditional ownership" in guide dog contracts?
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 6:29 PM, NAGDU President via NAGDU
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>> Cindy,
>> First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion and
>> am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
>> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
>> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
>> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other
>> party has the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide
>> the question.
>> My
>> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of
>> ownership agreement to court, the court might question whether the
>> other provisions of the agreement are congruent with property rights
>> law. In other words, if you own some property, can anyone place
>> restrictions on the use of such property? Except for property given in
>> consideration of the fulfillment of a future contract, such as the
>> giving of an advance for an appearance or the giving of an engagement
>> ring for the fulfillment of a contract of marriage, property rights
>> are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the guide dog
>> training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership does not
>> reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
>> change the oil regularly.
>> While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone ever
>> bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
>> reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for
>> any reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that
>> is found in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.
>> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the harness
>> furnished to the Graduate shall, at all times, remain the property of
>> SEGDI. In the event it is not, in SEGDI's sole opinion, being put to
>> proper use, SEGDI reserves the right to require its immediate return.
>> Also,
>> at the time of retirement of the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion,
>> the Dog is no longer suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness
>> shall be returned to SEGDI immediately. At no time is the Graduate
>> permitted to sell, lend or retain the harness once the Dog has retired.
>> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI.
>> How much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you
>> or someone you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training
>> program because they feared having the dog or the harness taken away
>> because the program may believe, in their sole opinion and
>> discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
>> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
>> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need
>> their oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having
>> their dog repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some
>> of those ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had
>> better follow-up!
>> Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
>> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else
>> can drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who
>> wanted to know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my
>> previous dogs. I wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he
>> is a lot to handle. I was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or
>> Louiza from me because of this
>> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him,
>> the program could remove him for this! How ludicrous!
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>> Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>> not what holds you back.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the
>> owner
>> policy? It was apparently not in place before?
>> Cindy
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>> David,
>> I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
>> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching, I
>> could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
>> provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's
>> we
>> have signed!
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
>> of
>> the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people
>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
>> holds
>> you back.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>> Thanks for sending this, Marion. Not only do several provisions
>> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted. Was it written by a
>> law
>> school dropout, perhaps?
>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
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--
--Dar
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