[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Thu Jan 12 10:27:16 UTC 2017

Dar,

	Thank you very much! As I read my message again to see exactly what
you were cheering me on to do, I noticed what a difference a word makes!
(smile) My message was supposed to say we will *not* stand for their
paternalistic behavior! (grin) I need to proof my messages a little closer
before I hit the "send" button!

Fraternally yours,
Marion

Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG

The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
you back.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m gina via
NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 3:53 PM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Cc: d m gina
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

You go man you go.
I love it.
Keep up the swell work.

Original message:
> Julie,

>         As you state, disputing a contract is a civil matter and this
could
> cost a great deal of money. This being said, if consumers would quit
> allowing guide dog training programs to repossess their dogs requiring
them
> to do so through a civil proceeding that would cost the program, perhaps
> they would quit coercing blind people into submission! We intend to pursue
> this matter and put the programs on notice we will stand for their
> paternalistic behavior!

> Fraternally yours,
> Marion

> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG

> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
holds
> you back.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 5:45 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Julie J.
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

> Buddy,

> Can they take your home away? or is it just the fines?
> Is there a process of warnings, a hearing of some sort and then finally an
> action?  Is there an appeal process?

> I don't live in a home owners association, but  I suspect I know the
answers
> to these questions.  And I think that's what the significant difference is
> to how the guide dog programs operate.   For me it's not the specific
words
> in the contract, but the actions that demonstrate their values.  Actions
> speak louder than words.  When a program instructs, endorses or supports
> it's employees to act in a manner that demeans or devalues blind people,
I'm
> taking a pass.  A good contract with a strong ownership agreement is a
good
> first step, but it has to be followed by solid actions that reflect what
> they've said in the contract.

> In the end the violation of a contract is a civil matter that will require
a

> lawyer, loads of money and even more time.   Meanwhile the program has the
> dog.  Not too many blind people have the resources to pursue a case like
> this in court and I suspect the programs know it, which brings us around
to
> my previous point.  What the program does is more important than what they
> say they are going to do on a piece of paper.

> Julie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 5:56 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

> I don't disagree with any of these assertions, but playing devil's
advocate
> for a second...

> OK, first, so what if the school owns the harness? They certainly can, it
> has their name on it, and we all know there's nothing magic about working
> gear. I really have no objection to this provision myself; after all, the
> harness doesn't make the dog. Now to the real thing...

> OK, I'm also no lawyer. But what about a different comparison for
owneship?
> Again, I should stress that I am all for us having full and complete
> ownership of our dogs upon graduation. I'd settle for same after a
> reasonable probationary period if I must, but it isn't my preference,
though
> I understand why it might be a thing, if we're talking about making sure
> that the match is really going to work out. After all, if there are going
to
> be problems, most of them will show up soonish. So with that out of the
way,
> a different comparison.

> Let's say you buy a home. Or to make it easier, let's say you buy a condo,
> although homes in housing developments often end up with similar things.
OK,
> so you buy this home, and as a condition of the purchase, you have to sign
a
> contract that includes certain covenants, conditions, and restrictions.
> These are unfortunately becoming more common as time goes on. You'll get
> things like, your home has to meet certain aesthetic requirements. You
can't
> paint it other than specific colors. You can't have plants further than a
> certain distance from the street. You can't have antennas of any kind,
apart
> from a small direct broadcast satellite, above a certain height, if you
can
> have them at all. (These things are a real thorn in the side of lots of
ham
> radio operators.) Any variances must be approved by the homeowner's
> association board, who is the final and sole arbiter of such variances. No
> sign, no home. And if you are caught violating any of these conditions,
you
> can have fairly severe fines for doing so. And it's all legal,
> unfortunately. In the name of, I think they say, neighbrohood aesthetics,
or
> keeping property values high, or any number of things.

> How do these sorts of conditions differ in reality from the conditions of
> "conditional ownership" in guide dog contracts?

> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name

>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 6:29 PM, NAGDU President via NAGDU
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:

>> Cindy,

>> First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion and
>> am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
>> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
>> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
>> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other
>> party has the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide
>> the question.
>> My
>> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of
>> ownership agreement to court, the court might question whether the
>> other provisions of the agreement are congruent with property rights
>> law. In other words, if you own some property, can anyone place
>> restrictions on the use of such property? Except for property given in
>> consideration of the fulfillment of a future contract, such as the
>> giving of an advance for an appearance or the giving of an engagement
>> ring for the fulfillment of a contract of marriage, property rights
>> are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the guide dog
>> training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership does not
>> reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
>> change the oil regularly.

>> While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone ever
>> bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
>> reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for
>> any reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that
>> is found in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.

>> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the harness
>> furnished to the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property of
>> SEGDI. In the event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being put to
>> proper use, SEGDI reserves the right to  require its immediate return.
>> Also,
>> at the time of retirement of  the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion,
>> the Dog is no longer  suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness
>> shall be returned  to SEGDI immediately. At no time is the Graduate
>> permitted to sell, lend or retain the harness once the Dog has retired.

>> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI.
>> How much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you
>> or someone you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training
>> program because they feared having the dog or the harness taken away
>> because the program  may believe, in their sole opinion and
>> discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
>> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
>> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need
>> their oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having
>> their dog repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some
>> of those ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had
>> better follow-up!

>> Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
>> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else
>> can drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who
>> wanted to know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my
>> previous dogs. I wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he
>> is a lot to handle. I was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or
>> Louiza from me because of this
>> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him,
>> the program could remove him for this! How ludicrous!

>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>> Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG

>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>> not what holds you back.

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached

>> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the
>> owner
>> policy? It was apparently not in place before?

>> Cindy

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
President
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached

>> David,

>> I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
>> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching,
I
>> could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
>> provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's
>> we
>> have signed!

>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion

>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
>> of
>> the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG

>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>> people
>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
>> holds
>> you back.

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached

>> Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions
>> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by a
>> law
>> school dropout, perhaps?

>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL

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-- 
--Dar
skype: dmgina23
  FB: dmgina
www.twitter.com/dmgina
every saint has a past
every sinner has a future

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