[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Sun Jan 15 01:19:18 UTC 2017

*Hello Marion,
You do make some good points.
Regarding the ownership of the harness by the school.
There's a very simple solution for the Guide Dog Owner should the school 
repossess the harness.
Purchase another harness, the law, for now anyway, still allows Guide 
Dog Owners to freely purchase, and use harnesses that they purchase 
themselves. Leader Dogs ran into this a few years ago. The school 
decided the dog should be taken out of service. The Owner disagreed. 
Leader, legally, could NOT take the dog away, but it could take their 
harness back. Leader Dog did so, but the GDO bought a harness and 
continued to work their Guide. I'm not offering a judgement on this case 
as to which party was right. I'm merely sharing a "For-Instance".

CAVEAT: Your Mileage May Vary

Wayne And Harley

*On 1/7/2017 5:29 PM, NAGDU President via NAGDU wrote:
> Cindy,
>
> 	First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion
> and am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other party has
> the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide the question. My
> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of  ownership
> agreement to court, the court might question whether the other provisions of
> the agreement are congruent with property rights law. In other words, if you
> own some property, can anyone place restrictions on the use of such
> property? Except for property given in consideration of the fulfillment of a
> future contract, such as the giving of an advance for an appearance or the
> giving of an engagement ring for the fulfillment of a contract of marriage,
> property rights are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the
> guide dog training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership does
> not reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
> change the oil regularly.
>
> 	While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone
> ever bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
> reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for any
> reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that is found
> in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.
>
> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the
> harness furnished to the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property
> of SEGDI. In the event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being put to
> proper use, SEGDI reserves the right to  require its immediate return. Also,
> at the time of retirement of  the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion, the
> Dog is no longer  suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness shall be
> returned  to SEGDI immediately. At no time is the Graduate permitted to
> sell, lend or retain the harness once the Dog has retired.
>
> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI. How
> much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you or someone
> you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training program because they
> feared having the dog or the harness taken away because the program  may
> believe, in their sole opinion and discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need their
> oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having their dog
> repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some of those
> ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had better follow-up!
>
> 	Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else can
> drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who wanted to
> know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my previous dogs. I
> wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he is a lot to handle. I
> was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or Louiza from me because of this
> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him, the
> program could remove him for this! How ludicrous!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
>
>
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>
> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the owner
> policy? It was apparently not in place before?
>
> Cindy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>
> David,
>
> 	I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching, I
> could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
> provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's we
> have signed!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
>
>
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions
> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by a law
> school dropout, perhaps?
>
> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>
>
>
>
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