[NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
S L Johnson
SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
Wed Jan 18 23:32:47 UTC 2017
Cindy:
You bring up a good point. I have known a few physically disabled people
who had to raise thousands of dollars to pay the organization that trained
their service dogs. In one case the lady had already been waiting five
years and still had more money to raise before she could be put on the
active list for a dog. Some places will ask their applicants to help obtain
donations and participate in other fund raising events until they have
raised the amount of money needed for the training and dog. As blind people
we ae very fortunate that most guide dog schools do not charge anything for
the dogs. I know I would have had a lot of difficulty coming up with the
cost of a guide dog even when I was younger and employed at a full-time job.
Now that I am retired, I could not have a guide dog if I had to pay
thousands of dollars. Just because we do not pay for our dogs, the schools
should still treat us with dignity, respect and grant complete
unconditional ownership upon graduation.
Sandra Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:09 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
Wayne, owner training isn't a viable option for many of us, so please try to
respect that we all have our means, our abilities, our patience, our money
or not, etc. Let's don't play the judgment card here. This topic isn't about
whether or not we can pay for or raise our own and train them; this topic is
whether we are respected enough to be trusted with our dogs. If you think
about it, these are not permanent loan like the NLS Machines. In your heart
you own the dog. If it is your dog and you own it in your heart, the fear of
its being taken away and how that might be done has some real stress to it.
I think you people who have ways of paying full price for your dogs need to
take into consideration that many of us do not have this ability. I can't
imagine having to raise funds that some of the other service dog users have
to raise.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne And Harley
via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:01 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Wayne And Harley <k9dad at k9di.org>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
Howard,You've made some interesting comments. Particularly regarding
"putting you money where your mouth is".I agree totally, as I have done so.
I footed the entire bill of adopting, raising, medical, training and
equipping Harley D ( my current Service Animal ). It was, and is one of the
best investments that I've ever made. True, though, Owner Training isn't
for everyone, but it is, a viable option.
Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
Wayne M. Scace
-------- Original message --------
From: "Howard J. Levine via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date: 1/18/2017 07:26 (GMT-06:00)
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Howard J. Levine" <WB2HWW at earthlink.net>, 'Jimmy'
<jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
Thank you I agree with you, every one thinks that they have right to
something for free or almost no cost. Just look how this country voted. Just
because we are blind does not give us the right to say I wanted it for free.
If you wanted it your way then go out and pay for it ,take out your check
book or credit card like any other sighted person. If you want a car you
write a check or take out loan.
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:49 AM
To: National Association of Guide Dog Users Gwizdala
Cc: Jimmy
Subject: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
Regarding the ownership issue, it seems this subject has been going on for a
long time. I've believed that this has been resented to the resolutions
committee in 2016 and possibly in the past conventions and has not passed.
When the resolution was presented to the resolution committee, the Nagdu
board and its members were not informed that this would be presented to the
resolution committee or given the opportunity to discuss the proposition to
the resolution committee before the convention. I would think if NAGDU would
want to present a resolution, all board members, including all other
members, should have the opportunity to voice their opinions and vote as to
if the majority feel a resolution is needed.
Keep in mind these points. There have only been a few instances of what
happened to the Southeastern graduate. In the other cases, and I am sure it
will be claimed there have been numerous occurrences, we have not been given
all the facts of each instance so that a informed decision or full
understanding is made.Theoretically, one of those instances may of been
justified; but then to say without providing facts on each case that all the
other situations were discriminatory and improper without facts and proof of
each case is not compelling. If you want to claim all the other situations,
we need the facts on those cases as well.As far as the situation in Florida,
we still have not heard indisputable facts as to all aspects of the
situation. What has been presented are assumptions, hear say,and lack of
indesputable fact. A person should not assume or make an claim without all
of the facts. Unfortunately, the individual ,regardless of the
circumstances, signed documents from someone they did not really know and
did not read the writing. That is a horrible idea.
Next point: This point has been mentioned so many times. As in choosing a
university or place of employment, choosing to rent or lease a home or car,
you do your homework and choose which program/university, or financial
program works bests for you. If ownership is important to you and you are
weary of losing your dog, do not go to that school. There are schools that
offer complete ownership. YOu have options. If you don't like it, then you
should consider the $50,000 the school paid and invested in that dog, and I
am sure they will provide you ownership.I understand that some say it is the
whole perspective and precedence of just not being able to own your own
dog.It is assumed that the schools must be undoubtedly not giving ownership
because of low expectations etc.BUt let's do some math. You have a school
that has 12 classes a month with 25 students. This gives you about 300
students you are training and providing dogs to each year. Multiply this by
$50,000 of the total cost of each dog in the program and you get $15
million. SO, my point to consider, if you investing and spending $15 million
a year, you want to make sure the dogs are in good hands, cared for, and
that your product is being used in such a way the customer is benefiting and
your organization is being reflected positively.Now, my consideration is to
, instead of trying to force a company/organization to change their policy
because you assume they have bad intentions, take a different perspective.
Approach the issue from a different angle. What if we tried to work with the
schools, rather than constantly criticize and ridicule them. Why do you
think fewer and fewer schools and their representatives attend our meetings
and are not willing to participate? So instead, what if we worked on our
relationships with the schools. Then, propose schools put into place a
committee or have a universal committee that all the schools implement. This
committee could review and investigate any claims or reports of abuse or
poor treatment of their guide dog.; then, they could report to thee involved
school with the full investigative findings.This may not change all of the
schools policies to give full ownership, but it would put into place a
universal process to ensure just due process and investigation.That way,
there are no doubts or question if a dog was taken for no reason.
In summary, I think we need to not let our emotions and our own agenda get
in the way of what is factual and true.If there are countless other removals
of dogs from their owners, I want to see the proof of each of those
instances, and not just hearsay. I want numbers and facts.I want better
relationships with the schools.I want us to consider alternative approaches
to the ownership issues if the body and board feel this is important.More
so, we should consider alternatives to ensuring that due process takes place
when a report is given to a school and not automatically assume the school
is a bad guy trying to take every opportunity to repossess their
dogs.Finally, If one of us invested $15 million a year to a product, most
of us would not give it away, no questions asked. And it not because we
don't trust our customer. It is because we invested a lot of time and money
into our product and we want what is best for the product and the customer.
The way the dog and client team work and demonstrate themselves reflects on
the blind community, us as federationists, and reflects on the school where
the dog guide came from. This is not a black and white issue. There are
many facets to this issue. The federation body has spoken as to how they
feel based on the failing of the resolution. But if this issue wants to be
proposed again to the federation body, the whole Nagdu body, including
board and members, should have an opportunity to voice their opinions and
decide together if we want the issue to go to resolutions once more.That did
not happen in the past, and that is probably part of the reason why the
resolution fell on it's face.Those are just my thoughts and do not reflect
on the board or the whole body's opinion. As a board member, I think all of
our members should sound out their thoughts.We could also consider putting
together a accessible poll or survey to see where the whole NAGDU body
stands on this issue.
Phone: 901-483-1515
Personal Email: jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com Refer NFB correspondences to:
secretary at nfb-tn.org
"Blindness never limits- Low expectations do! Live the life you want!"
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