[NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs & Rent

Julie Johnson julielj402 at gmail.com
Fri Jun 23 15:36:09 UTC 2017


Yes, Rebecca, I remember you!

When I initially started the process of deciding and finding a private 
trainer, I wanted a contract.  I wanted everything to be clearly spelled 
out.  I wanted no problems or misunderstandings.

After Meghan agreed and I thought more about the contract, it seemed 
kind of pointless.  I could put anything I wanted in there, but it 
didn't really ensure it would solve any issues.  It would give me 
documentation to refer to if the whole thing went badly and I pursued it 
in court.   The contract wasn't going to prevent problems.  It would 
only give me a way to seek compensation after the fact.  In the end I 
decided to not have a written contract.  I think it's probably a good 
idea.  If others decide to have a dog privately trained I would strongly 
encourage you to think through the idea and contents of a contract.

I found the breeder and picked Jetta from the litter.  Meghan provided 
the puppy raising and basic guide skill training.  If it was obvious to 
Meghan very early in the process that Jetta  was absolutely not going to 
work out, it would have been my responsibility to keep Jetta as a pet or 
find her a home.  Meghan offered to help, but ultimately that would have 
been my responsibility.

On the idea of Jetta not working out after all the training...I never 
had an expectation of any guarantees.  There are so many variables: did 
I pick the right puppy, did she get the right socialization, did she 
have the right temperament to guide, was her health sound, was she a 
good fit for my lifestyle, and so much more.  Meghan can't control for 
most of those variables.  I think it would be unfair to expect that she 
offer some sort of guarantee that I end up with a working guide at the 
end.  I went into it with the same attitude that I have about owner 
training.  All you can do is all you can do and you have to deal with 
the rest as it comes.  I don't place blame on anyone, stuff just happens.

It ended up that about 6 months after coming here Jetta developed some 
fairly significant dog issues.  Was that Meghan's fault?Is Jetta 
genetically wired to react to other dogs?  Did Jetta have some traumatic 
experience that I didn't recognize as traumatic? Did I do something 
wrong in the way I handled Jetta?   Who knows. It's just a thing that 
happened.  I talked to Meghan and she helped me through those tough 
times, but again it was my responsibility to deal with the issues.

My expectations were that Meghan would love and care for Jetta in the 
year she was there.  She was to ensure that Jetta got the veterinary 
care she needed, with my knowledge and approval and at my expense.  
Jetta ate the food I chose.  She attended the obedience/other classes 
that Meghan suggested and that I approved.  I detailed the kinds of 
things Jetta would encounter living here and Meghan made sure Jetta was 
exposed to as many as was practical.  I provided a detailed list of the 
guide commands I wanted and what I meant exactly by each term.  Example, 
I use straight to literally mean go straight, not to cross to the up 
curb. Meghan provided regular written reports and we talked by phone  
When it got close to when Meghan brought Jetta back I came up with the 
places I wanted to go and the specific things I wanted to work on.

It was very much like owner training, except Meghan did the hard work.  
I think Meghan did an excellent job and I would highly recommend her to 
anyone thinking of hiring a private trainer. Please understand though 
private training is not like attending a school.  Expect to have a much 
greater level of input into the process and much greater responsibility 
in the outcome.

Julie
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
throughout the whole process.

On 6/23/2017 9:59 AM, Star Gazer via NAGDU wrote:
> 	This is interesting Julie.
> I'm curious, and Meghan, if you're on here or can get this note, I'd like to
> ask you too. How do you write your contracts so you don't get screwed
> finantially and professionally when a dog can't or doesn't work out? What
> does "work out" mean in terms of your contract? Is there a period of
> performance?
> You and I talked awhile back, and I've always liked you. You may or may not
> remember me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:26 AM
> To: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
> Rent
>
> Buddy is correct I do currently have two working guides.  That wasn't
> exactly my plan, but life happens.
>
> Monty was having some difficulties.  On the way to work he was going super,
> super snails pace slow.  He's always been a fast dog.  He would also stop
> randomly and for no apparent reason.  He was showing signs of being
> stressed.  I decided to start another dog.  Remember I owner/private train,
> so the time line is different.
>
> I sent Jetta off to live and train with Meghan for a year.  She came back to
> me at 14 months old with excellent obedience, socialization and a solid
> foundation in guide skills.  Still she was only 14 months old and I was
> hesitant to have her work full time.  I was concerned about her mental
> maturity and experience level.  I wanted to take it easy with her for 6 to
> 12 months while I gently eased her into full time guide work.  During that
> time I planned on easing Monty into retirement.  Good plan...didn't work out
> though.
>
> Instead I ended up leaving my job after much financial and programmatic
> drama, nothing to do with blindness, just politics and grant funding.
> Jetta came in August, job ended in November. That winter into spring Jetta
> developed a fairly serious dog reactivity issue.  I pulled back her work to
> pretty much training only.
>
> Monty was doing most of the actual guide work.  Interestingly his pace
> picked up to normal.  He totally quit the stopping at random places.  It was
> my job he hated, not his.  Over the next year Monty 110% bounced back to his
> former self.  He loves to guide and does a completely safe and solid job of
> it.
>
> I spent a year working through every training technique I knew of and some
> new ones in an attempt to get Jetta past her nonsense. In January of 2016 I
> had pretty much decided I was done and she was not going to ever work as a
> guide.  I own my home and can have multiple dogs with no
> legal issues.   After taking a total break with her, I didn't even take
> her on a walk for a month, I tried one last technique to address the dog
> issues and got results.
>
> So for about the last year or so I've had two guides that are capable of
> working at any given moment.   It ended up being pretty crazy, but it's
> my life.  I'm really very comfortable with changing the working/retired/in
> training status of a dog if the situation warrants it.  However I don't
> rent, so there are no legal issues with my housing.  My city allows for
> multiple pets in private homes, so even if they are both retired/in training
> I'm still legal.  My state laws have provisions for dogs in training. So it
> works out.
>
> And to answer the question everyone is wondering, I do stick with my dogs
> through thick and thin.  I don't give up easily.  Maybe it's nearing the
> point of insanity, but it's my life and I get to choose.
>
> Julie
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>
>
>> Umm. This may well put me over my limit. (Can I have banked posts since I
> haven't posted in ages?) Anyway, yes, what Marion said. If your dog is
> definitely for sure retired, representing it as anything else seems to me to
> be unethical, especially in a case where the dog really isn't doing the work
> anymore.
>> Having said that, a couple of additional thoughts:
>>
>> First, when I retired Karl and we rented, our landlord, who was an unusual
> sort of guy, absolutely knew that Karl was retired, and he let us keep him
> anyway and didn't charge extra. Sure, I'd have paid it if he had, or made
> other arrangements if I had to, but I didn't have to, and all the dealings
> in this regard were completely above board. Just to tell you how unusual
> Kevin is as a landlord, when we bought our house and left his property, he
> helped us move. You find me a landlord that would do that.
>> Second, I also used to think that retirement is retirement is retirement.
> Now, I think there are certainly cases where retirement can be a bit more
> fluid than that. Julie, for instance, has two working guides, although her
> older one likely works a bit less than her younger one nowadays. In my case,
> Hilde is my everyday guide. However, Leno still wants to go, and he's still
> capable of doing the job. The reasons for retiring him had to do more with
> me not wanting to risk him having a seizure too far from home for one, and
> Hilde needing the work more for another. So when Hilde was ill for a little
> while, I harnessed up Leno, who was happy for the outing, and he did the job
> for which he was trained. Yep. I told people that he had come briefly out of
> retirement. He was good with it, I was good with it, and even though we
> almost got hit by a truck (it wasn't Leno's fault), he worked well and
> worked safely. I see no problem with this, but my living situation in regard
> to what animals I'm allowed to have is pretty flexible, since we own our
> home.
>> Naturally, we all have to weigh what's right with what's legal, or put
> another way, just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you *should* do
> that thing. I'm in no position to judge what other people do with whatever
> situation they have, and at the end of the day, whatever decisions we make,
> we have to live with their consequences, unintended or otherwise.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 9:17 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired
> business.
>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during
>>> my first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school
>>> gave me permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me
>>> because he had been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the
>>> semester, but I learned some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going to
>>> class with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not
>>> destructive, but this fact alone had totally changed the relationship
>>> between him, me, and the school for that matter.
>>>
>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a
>>> get-together or a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I
>>> would need to comply. It would have been wrong for me to argue this
> point.
>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit,
>>> and all of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live
>>> in that building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades
>>> no matter where we stayed.
>>>
>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then many
>>> went home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come
>>> along, and there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It
>>> occurred to me just how unfair it was that my dog was there. He
>>> wasn't a guide anymore, he was a pet. So I made the decision to leave
>>> him at home after about six weeks. It had helped me through a
>>> difficult time, but I had risked my relationships with many I think.
>>>
>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He
>>> was in harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because
>>> with large tree equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was
>>> traffic or not. I'm not sure it was ethical for me to do this; I did
>>> not lie about who he was, and the dentist regarded him as a guide.
>>> This is not something I would make a practice of because I think he
>>> either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a situation where pet
>>> deposits were required,  I would pay it because Fisher is now a pet.
>>> Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new place to
>>> live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed
>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending on
> the terms of it.
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>> President via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> 	In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I
>>> believe this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law.
>>> In my opinion, taking advantage of the law by calling a retired service
> dog "semi retired"
>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those
>>> who take advantage of the law that provides us access to places of
>>> public accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their
>>> pet as a service dog? It is no different when we call our retired
>>> service dog semi retired in order to avoid paying a pet deposit.
>>> Folks, we can't have it both ways! We cannot ask for those who
>>> misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do so if we are willing to
> act the same way.
>>> 	I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived
>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here
>>> for the entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your
>>> integrity by suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics
>>> and law, you are telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the
>>> way you want others to think of you?
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>> Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>
>>>
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>>> not what holds you back.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog
>>> since you can have two service animals with no problems.  That is what I
> would do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy
>>> VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Hey folks,
>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you guys
> knew.
>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current
> guide.
>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>>
>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you
>>> have to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a
> pet fee?
>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated
>>> using voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>>
>>>
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