[NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs & Rent
Star Gazer
pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Fri Jun 23 16:10:18 UTC 2017
Hi Julie. I just ried writing you back
privately, I'm not sure if I have the right address for you.
Might you have or be willing to give Meghan my contacto info? She and I
exchanged some messages back in the day so she may also remember me.
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:36 AM
To: Star Gazer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
Rent
Yes, Rebecca, I remember you!
When I initially started the process of deciding and finding a private
trainer, I wanted a contract. I wanted everything to be clearly spelled
out. I wanted no problems or misunderstandings.
After Meghan agreed and I thought more about the contract, it seemed kind of
pointless. I could put anything I wanted in there, but it didn't really
ensure it would solve any issues. It would give me documentation to refer
to if the whole thing went badly and I pursued it
in court. The contract wasn't going to prevent problems. It would
only give me a way to seek compensation after the fact. In the end I
decided to not have a written contract. I think it's probably a good idea.
If others decide to have a dog privately trained I would strongly encourage
you to think through the idea and contents of a contract.
I found the breeder and picked Jetta from the litter. Meghan provided the
puppy raising and basic guide skill training. If it was obvious to Meghan
very early in the process that Jetta was absolutely not going to work out,
it would have been my responsibility to keep Jetta as a pet or find her a
home. Meghan offered to help, but ultimately that would have been my
responsibility.
On the idea of Jetta not working out after all the training...I never had an
expectation of any guarantees. There are so many variables: did I pick the
right puppy, did she get the right socialization, did she have the right
temperament to guide, was her health sound, was she a good fit for my
lifestyle, and so much more. Meghan can't control for most of those
variables. I think it would be unfair to expect that she offer some sort of
guarantee that I end up with a working guide at the end. I went into it
with the same attitude that I have about owner training. All you can do is
all you can do and you have to deal with the rest as it comes. I don't
place blame on anyone, stuff just happens.
It ended up that about 6 months after coming here Jetta developed some
fairly significant dog issues. Was that Meghan's fault?Is Jetta genetically
wired to react to other dogs? Did Jetta have some traumatic experience that
I didn't recognize as traumatic? Did I do something
wrong in the way I handled Jetta? Who knows. It's just a thing that
happened. I talked to Meghan and she helped me through those tough times,
but again it was my responsibility to deal with the issues.
My expectations were that Meghan would love and care for Jetta in the year
she was there. She was to ensure that Jetta got the veterinary care she
needed, with my knowledge and approval and at my expense.
Jetta ate the food I chose. She attended the obedience/other classes that
Meghan suggested and that I approved. I detailed the kinds of things Jetta
would encounter living here and Meghan made sure Jetta was exposed to as
many as was practical. I provided a detailed list of the guide commands I
wanted and what I meant exactly by each term. Example, I use straight to
literally mean go straight, not to cross to the up curb. Meghan provided
regular written reports and we talked by phone When it got close to when
Meghan brought Jetta back I came up with the places I wanted to go and the
specific things I wanted to work on.
It was very much like owner training, except Meghan did the hard work.
I think Meghan did an excellent job and I would highly recommend her to
anyone thinking of hiring a private trainer. Please understand though
private training is not like attending a school. Expect to have a much
greater level of input into the process and much greater responsibility in
the outcome.
Julie
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
throughout the whole process.
On 6/23/2017 9:59 AM, Star Gazer via NAGDU wrote:
> This is interesting Julie.
> I'm curious, and Meghan, if you're on here or can get this note, I'd
> like to ask you too. How do you write your contracts so you don't get
> screwed finantially and professionally when a dog can't or doesn't
> work out? What does "work out" mean in terms of your contract? Is
> there a period of performance?
> You and I talked awhile back, and I've always liked you. You may or
> may not remember me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
> Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:26 AM
> To: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
> Dogs & Rent
>
> Buddy is correct I do currently have two working guides. That wasn't
> exactly my plan, but life happens.
>
> Monty was having some difficulties. On the way to work he was going
> super, super snails pace slow. He's always been a fast dog. He would
> also stop randomly and for no apparent reason. He was showing signs
> of being stressed. I decided to start another dog. Remember I
> owner/private train, so the time line is different.
>
> I sent Jetta off to live and train with Meghan for a year. She came
> back to me at 14 months old with excellent obedience, socialization
> and a solid foundation in guide skills. Still she was only 14 months
> old and I was hesitant to have her work full time. I was concerned
> about her mental maturity and experience level. I wanted to take it
> easy with her for 6 to
> 12 months while I gently eased her into full time guide work. During
> that time I planned on easing Monty into retirement. Good
> plan...didn't work out though.
>
> Instead I ended up leaving my job after much financial and
> programmatic drama, nothing to do with blindness, just politics and grant
funding.
> Jetta came in August, job ended in November. That winter into spring
> Jetta developed a fairly serious dog reactivity issue. I pulled back
> her work to pretty much training only.
>
> Monty was doing most of the actual guide work. Interestingly his pace
> picked up to normal. He totally quit the stopping at random places.
> It was my job he hated, not his. Over the next year Monty 110%
> bounced back to his former self. He loves to guide and does a
> completely safe and solid job of it.
>
> I spent a year working through every training technique I knew of and
> some new ones in an attempt to get Jetta past her nonsense. In January
> of 2016 I had pretty much decided I was done and she was not going to
> ever work as a guide. I own my home and can have multiple dogs with no
> legal issues. After taking a total break with her, I didn't even take
> her on a walk for a month, I tried one last technique to address the
> dog issues and got results.
>
> So for about the last year or so I've had two guides that are capable of
> working at any given moment. It ended up being pretty crazy, but it's
> my life. I'm really very comfortable with changing the
> working/retired/in training status of a dog if the situation warrants
> it. However I don't rent, so there are no legal issues with my
> housing. My city allows for multiple pets in private homes, so even
> if they are both retired/in training I'm still legal. My state laws
> have provisions for dogs in training. So it works out.
>
> And to answer the question everyone is wondering, I do stick with my
> dogs through thick and thin. I don't give up easily. Maybe it's
> nearing the point of insanity, but it's my life and I get to choose.
>
> Julie
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>
>
>> Umm. This may well put me over my limit. (Can I have banked posts
>> since I
> haven't posted in ages?) Anyway, yes, what Marion said. If your dog is
> definitely for sure retired, representing it as anything else seems to
> me to be unethical, especially in a case where the dog really isn't
> doing the work anymore.
>> Having said that, a couple of additional thoughts:
>>
>> First, when I retired Karl and we rented, our landlord, who was an
>> unusual
> sort of guy, absolutely knew that Karl was retired, and he let us keep
> him anyway and didn't charge extra. Sure, I'd have paid it if he had,
> or made other arrangements if I had to, but I didn't have to, and all
> the dealings in this regard were completely above board. Just to tell
> you how unusual Kevin is as a landlord, when we bought our house and
> left his property, he helped us move. You find me a landlord that would do
that.
>> Second, I also used to think that retirement is retirement is retirement.
> Now, I think there are certainly cases where retirement can be a bit
> more fluid than that. Julie, for instance, has two working guides,
> although her older one likely works a bit less than her younger one
> nowadays. In my case, Hilde is my everyday guide. However, Leno still
> wants to go, and he's still capable of doing the job. The reasons for
> retiring him had to do more with me not wanting to risk him having a
> seizure too far from home for one, and Hilde needing the work more for
> another. So when Hilde was ill for a little while, I harnessed up
> Leno, who was happy for the outing, and he did the job for which he
> was trained. Yep. I told people that he had come briefly out of
> retirement. He was good with it, I was good with it, and even though
> we almost got hit by a truck (it wasn't Leno's fault), he worked well
> and worked safely. I see no problem with this, but my living situation
> in regard to what animals I'm allowed to have is pretty flexible, since we
own our home.
>> Naturally, we all have to weigh what's right with what's legal, or
>> put
> another way, just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you
> *should* do that thing. I'm in no position to judge what other people
> do with whatever situation they have, and at the end of the day,
> whatever decisions we make, we have to live with their consequences,
unintended or otherwise.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 9:17 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired
> business.
>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during
>>> my first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school
>>> gave me permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me
>>> because he had been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the
>>> semester, but I learned some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going
>>> to class with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not
>>> destructive, but this fact alone had totally changed the
>>> relationship between him, me, and the school for that matter.
>>>
>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a
>>> get-together or a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I
>>> would need to comply. It would have been wrong for me to argue this
> point.
>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit,
>>> and all of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not
>>> live in that building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by
>>> spades no matter where we stayed.
>>>
>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then
>>> many went home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't
>>> come along, and there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It
>>> occurred to me just how unfair it was that my dog was there. He
>>> wasn't a guide anymore, he was a pet. So I made the decision to
>>> leave him at home after about six weeks. It had helped me through a
>>> difficult time, but I had risked my relationships with many I think.
>>>
>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He
>>> was in harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because
>>> with large tree equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was
>>> traffic or not. I'm not sure it was ethical for me to do this; I did
>>> not lie about who he was, and the dentist regarded him as a guide.
>>> This is not something I would make a practice of because I think he
>>> either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a situation where pet
>>> deposits were required, I would pay it because Fisher is now a pet.
>>> Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new place to
>>> live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed
>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending
>>> on
> the terms of it.
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>> President via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I
>>> believe this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law.
>>> In my opinion, taking advantage of the law by calling a retired
>>> service
> dog "semi retired"
>>> is unethical, as well as illegal. How is this different than those
>>> who take advantage of the law that provides us access to places of
>>> public accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their
>>> pet as a service dog? It is no different when we call our retired
>>> service dog semi retired in order to avoid paying a pet deposit.
>>> Folks, we can't have it both ways! We cannot ask for those who
>>> misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do so if we are
>>> willing to
> act the same way.
>>> I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived
>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here
>>> for the entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your
>>> integrity by suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics
>>> and law, you are telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the
>>> way you want others to think of you?
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>> Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>
>>>
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>>> not what holds you back.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Here is what my instructor said about that. Semi retire the dog
>>> since you can have two service animals with no problems. That is
>>> what I
> would do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy
>>> VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Hey folks,
>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you
>>> guys
> knew.
>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current
> guide.
>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>>
>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do
>>> you have to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to
>>> then pay a
> pet fee?
>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated
>>> using voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>>
>>>
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