[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 147, Issue 25

[Peter Wolf]

Hi all, 

Just had a conversation with Julie, who suggested telling you of our experience with a guide dog, and a service dog, in Europe.  I’ll be back within a few days to fill you in.  Thanks again to all of you who over the past year, conversed to get us ready.  I’ll be back within a few days with a little write up for you.  

Best, 
Peter & Metukah
On Jun 24, 2017, at 5:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>      Rent (Star Gazer)
>   2. Re: Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>      Rent (Julie Johnson)
>   3. Re: Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>      Rent (Lyn Gwizdak)
>   4. Re: Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>      Rent (Star Gazer)
>   5. Fwd: [NFBT] National Convention 2017 and the Canute
>      (Raul A. Gallegos)
>   6. Re: Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>      Rent (Wayne & Harley)
>   7. Re: Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>      Rent (Dan Weiner)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 10:59:24 -0400
> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
> 	Dogs & Rent
> Message-ID: <0a2c01d2ec31$4dd282c0$e9778840$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 	This is interesting Julie. 
> I'm curious, and Meghan, if you're on here or can get this note, I'd like to
> ask you too. How do you write your contracts so you don't get screwed
> finantially and professionally when a dog can't or doesn't work out? What
> does "work out" mean in terms of your contract? Is there a period of
> performance?
> You and I talked awhile back, and I've always liked you. You may or may not
> remember me. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:26 AM
> To: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
> Rent
> 
> Buddy is correct I do currently have two working guides.  That wasn't
> exactly my plan, but life happens.
> 
> Monty was having some difficulties.  On the way to work he was going super,
> super snails pace slow.  He's always been a fast dog.  He would also stop
> randomly and for no apparent reason.  He was showing signs of being
> stressed.  I decided to start another dog.  Remember I owner/private train,
> so the time line is different.
> 
> I sent Jetta off to live and train with Meghan for a year.  She came back to
> me at 14 months old with excellent obedience, socialization and a solid
> foundation in guide skills.  Still she was only 14 months old and I was
> hesitant to have her work full time.  I was concerned about her mental
> maturity and experience level.  I wanted to take it easy with her for 6 to
> 12 months while I gently eased her into full time guide work.  During that
> time I planned on easing Monty into retirement.  Good plan...didn't work out
> though.
> 
> Instead I ended up leaving my job after much financial and programmatic
> drama, nothing to do with blindness, just politics and grant funding.  
> Jetta came in August, job ended in November. That winter into spring Jetta
> developed a fairly serious dog reactivity issue.  I pulled back her work to
> pretty much training only.
> 
> Monty was doing most of the actual guide work.  Interestingly his pace
> picked up to normal.  He totally quit the stopping at random places.  It was
> my job he hated, not his.  Over the next year Monty 110% bounced back to his
> former self.  He loves to guide and does a completely safe and solid job of
> it.
> 
> I spent a year working through every training technique I knew of and some
> new ones in an attempt to get Jetta past her nonsense. In January of 2016 I
> had pretty much decided I was done and she was not going to ever work as a
> guide.  I own my home and can have multiple dogs with no 
> legal issues.   After taking a total break with her, I didn't even take 
> her on a walk for a month, I tried one last technique to address the dog
> issues and got results.
> 
> So for about the last year or so I've had two guides that are capable of 
> working at any given moment.   It ended up being pretty crazy, but it's 
> my life.  I'm really very comfortable with changing the working/retired/in
> training status of a dog if the situation warrants it.  However I don't
> rent, so there are no legal issues with my housing.  My city allows for
> multiple pets in private homes, so even if they are both retired/in training
> I'm still legal.  My state laws have provisions for dogs in training. So it
> works out.
> 
> And to answer the question everyone is wondering, I do stick with my dogs
> through thick and thin.  I don't give up easily.  Maybe it's nearing the
> point of insanity, but it's my life and I get to choose.
> 
> Julie
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> 
> 
>> Umm. This may well put me over my limit. (Can I have banked posts since I
> haven't posted in ages?) Anyway, yes, what Marion said. If your dog is
> definitely for sure retired, representing it as anything else seems to me to
> be unethical, especially in a case where the dog really isn't doing the work
> anymore.
>> 
>> Having said that, a couple of additional thoughts:
>> 
>> First, when I retired Karl and we rented, our landlord, who was an unusual
> sort of guy, absolutely knew that Karl was retired, and he let us keep him
> anyway and didn't charge extra. Sure, I'd have paid it if he had, or made
> other arrangements if I had to, but I didn't have to, and all the dealings
> in this regard were completely above board. Just to tell you how unusual
> Kevin is as a landlord, when we bought our house and left his property, he
> helped us move. You find me a landlord that would do that.
>> 
>> Second, I also used to think that retirement is retirement is retirement.
> Now, I think there are certainly cases where retirement can be a bit more
> fluid than that. Julie, for instance, has two working guides, although her
> older one likely works a bit less than her younger one nowadays. In my case,
> Hilde is my everyday guide. However, Leno still wants to go, and he's still
> capable of doing the job. The reasons for retiring him had to do more with
> me not wanting to risk him having a seizure too far from home for one, and
> Hilde needing the work more for another. So when Hilde was ill for a little
> while, I harnessed up Leno, who was happy for the outing, and he did the job
> for which he was trained. Yep. I told people that he had come briefly out of
> retirement. He was good with it, I was good with it, and even though we
> almost got hit by a truck (it wasn't Leno's fault), he worked well and
> worked safely. I see no problem with this, but my living situation in regard
> to what animals I'm allowed to have is pretty flexible, since we own our
> home.
>> 
>> Naturally, we all have to weigh what's right with what's legal, or put
> another way, just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you *should* do
> that thing. I'm in no position to judge what other people do with whatever
> situation they have, and at the end of the day, whatever decisions we make,
> we have to live with their consequences, unintended or otherwise.
>> 
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 9:17 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired
> business.
>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during 
>>> my first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school 
>>> gave me permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me 
>>> because he had been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the 
>>> semester, but I learned some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going to 
>>> class with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not 
>>> destructive, but this fact alone had totally changed the relationship 
>>> between him, me, and the school for that matter.
>>> 
>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a 
>>> get-together or a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I 
>>> would need to comply. It would have been wrong for me to argue this
> point.
>>> 
>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit, 
>>> and all of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live 
>>> in that building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades 
>>> no matter where we stayed.
>>> 
>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then many 
>>> went home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come 
>>> along, and there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It 
>>> occurred to me just how unfair it was that my dog was there. He 
>>> wasn't a guide anymore, he was a pet. So I made the decision to leave 
>>> him at home after about six weeks. It had helped me through a 
>>> difficult time, but I had risked my relationships with many I think.
>>> 
>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the 
>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He 
>>> was in harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because 
>>> with large tree equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was 
>>> traffic or not. I'm not sure it was ethical for me to do this; I did 
>>> not lie about who he was, and the dentist regarded him as a guide. 
>>> This is not something I would make a practice of because I think he 
>>> either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a situation where pet 
>>> deposits were required,  I would pay it because Fisher is now a pet. 
>>> Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new place to 
>>> live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed 
>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a 
>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending on
> the terms of it.
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU 
>>> President via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
>>> Dogs & Rent
>>> 
>>> 	In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The 
>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I 
>>> believe this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law. 
>>> In my opinion, taking advantage of the law by calling a retired service
> dog "semi retired"
>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those 
>>> who take advantage of the law that provides us access to places of 
>>> public accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their 
>>> pet as a service dog? It is no different when we call our retired 
>>> service dog semi retired in order to avoid paying a pet deposit. 
>>> Folks, we can't have it both ways! We cannot ask for those who 
>>> misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do so if we are willing to
> act the same way.
>>> 
>>> 	I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived 
>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here 
>>> for the entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your 
>>> integrity by suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics 
>>> and law, you are telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the 
>>> way you want others to think of you?
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>>> Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  
>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>>> not what holds you back.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>> 
>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog 
>>> since you can have two service animals with no problems.  That is what I
> would do.
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy 
>>> VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>> 
>>> Hey folks,
>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you guys
> knew.
>>> 
>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current
> guide.
>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>> 
>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you 
>>> have to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a
> pet fee?
>>> 
>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nancy
>>> 
>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated 
>>> using voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
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> om
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 10:36:09 -0500
> From: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
> To: Star Gazer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
> 	Dogs & Rent
> Message-ID: <bf42c1ab-5152-6ed0-8204-36048ed2227a at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> Yes, Rebecca, I remember you!
> 
> When I initially started the process of deciding and finding a private 
> trainer, I wanted a contract.  I wanted everything to be clearly spelled 
> out.  I wanted no problems or misunderstandings.
> 
> After Meghan agreed and I thought more about the contract, it seemed 
> kind of pointless.  I could put anything I wanted in there, but it 
> didn't really ensure it would solve any issues.  It would give me 
> documentation to refer to if the whole thing went badly and I pursued it 
> in court.   The contract wasn't going to prevent problems.  It would 
> only give me a way to seek compensation after the fact.  In the end I 
> decided to not have a written contract.  I think it's probably a good 
> idea.  If others decide to have a dog privately trained I would strongly 
> encourage you to think through the idea and contents of a contract.
> 
> I found the breeder and picked Jetta from the litter.  Meghan provided 
> the puppy raising and basic guide skill training.  If it was obvious to 
> Meghan very early in the process that Jetta  was absolutely not going to 
> work out, it would have been my responsibility to keep Jetta as a pet or 
> find her a home.  Meghan offered to help, but ultimately that would have 
> been my responsibility.
> 
> On the idea of Jetta not working out after all the training...I never 
> had an expectation of any guarantees.  There are so many variables: did 
> I pick the right puppy, did she get the right socialization, did she 
> have the right temperament to guide, was her health sound, was she a 
> good fit for my lifestyle, and so much more.  Meghan can't control for 
> most of those variables.  I think it would be unfair to expect that she 
> offer some sort of guarantee that I end up with a working guide at the 
> end.  I went into it with the same attitude that I have about owner 
> training.  All you can do is all you can do and you have to deal with 
> the rest as it comes.  I don't place blame on anyone, stuff just happens.
> 
> It ended up that about 6 months after coming here Jetta developed some 
> fairly significant dog issues.  Was that Meghan's fault?Is Jetta 
> genetically wired to react to other dogs?  Did Jetta have some traumatic 
> experience that I didn't recognize as traumatic? Did I do something 
> wrong in the way I handled Jetta?   Who knows. It's just a thing that 
> happened.  I talked to Meghan and she helped me through those tough 
> times, but again it was my responsibility to deal with the issues.
> 
> My expectations were that Meghan would love and care for Jetta in the 
> year she was there.  She was to ensure that Jetta got the veterinary 
> care she needed, with my knowledge and approval and at my expense.  
> Jetta ate the food I chose.  She attended the obedience/other classes 
> that Meghan suggested and that I approved.  I detailed the kinds of 
> things Jetta would encounter living here and Meghan made sure Jetta was 
> exposed to as many as was practical.  I provided a detailed list of the 
> guide commands I wanted and what I meant exactly by each term.  Example, 
> I use straight to literally mean go straight, not to cross to the up 
> curb. Meghan provided regular written reports and we talked by phone  
> When it got close to when Meghan brought Jetta back I came up with the 
> places I wanted to go and the specific things I wanted to work on.
> 
> It was very much like owner training, except Meghan did the hard work.  
> I think Meghan did an excellent job and I would highly recommend her to 
> anyone thinking of hiring a private trainer. Please understand though 
> private training is not like attending a school.  Expect to have a much 
> greater level of input into the process and much greater responsibility 
> in the outcome.
> 
> Julie
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> throughout the whole process.
> 
> On 6/23/2017 9:59 AM, Star Gazer via NAGDU wrote:
>> 	This is interesting Julie.
>> I'm curious, and Meghan, if you're on here or can get this note, I'd like to
>> ask you too. How do you write your contracts so you don't get screwed
>> finantially and professionally when a dog can't or doesn't work out? What
>> does "work out" mean in terms of your contract? Is there a period of
>> performance?
>> You and I talked awhile back, and I've always liked you. You may or may not
>> remember me.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:26 AM
>> To: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>> Rent
>> 
>> Buddy is correct I do currently have two working guides.  That wasn't
>> exactly my plan, but life happens.
>> 
>> Monty was having some difficulties.  On the way to work he was going super,
>> super snails pace slow.  He's always been a fast dog.  He would also stop
>> randomly and for no apparent reason.  He was showing signs of being
>> stressed.  I decided to start another dog.  Remember I owner/private train,
>> so the time line is different.
>> 
>> I sent Jetta off to live and train with Meghan for a year.  She came back to
>> me at 14 months old with excellent obedience, socialization and a solid
>> foundation in guide skills.  Still she was only 14 months old and I was
>> hesitant to have her work full time.  I was concerned about her mental
>> maturity and experience level.  I wanted to take it easy with her for 6 to
>> 12 months while I gently eased her into full time guide work.  During that
>> time I planned on easing Monty into retirement.  Good plan...didn't work out
>> though.
>> 
>> Instead I ended up leaving my job after much financial and programmatic
>> drama, nothing to do with blindness, just politics and grant funding.
>> Jetta came in August, job ended in November. That winter into spring Jetta
>> developed a fairly serious dog reactivity issue.  I pulled back her work to
>> pretty much training only.
>> 
>> Monty was doing most of the actual guide work.  Interestingly his pace
>> picked up to normal.  He totally quit the stopping at random places.  It was
>> my job he hated, not his.  Over the next year Monty 110% bounced back to his
>> former self.  He loves to guide and does a completely safe and solid job of
>> it.
>> 
>> I spent a year working through every training technique I knew of and some
>> new ones in an attempt to get Jetta past her nonsense. In January of 2016 I
>> had pretty much decided I was done and she was not going to ever work as a
>> guide.  I own my home and can have multiple dogs with no
>> legal issues.   After taking a total break with her, I didn't even take
>> her on a walk for a month, I tried one last technique to address the dog
>> issues and got results.
>> 
>> So for about the last year or so I've had two guides that are capable of
>> working at any given moment.   It ended up being pretty crazy, but it's
>> my life.  I'm really very comfortable with changing the working/retired/in
>> training status of a dog if the situation warrants it.  However I don't
>> rent, so there are no legal issues with my housing.  My city allows for
>> multiple pets in private homes, so even if they are both retired/in training
>> I'm still legal.  My state laws have provisions for dogs in training. So it
>> works out.
>> 
>> And to answer the question everyone is wondering, I do stick with my dogs
>> through thick and thin.  I don't give up easily.  Maybe it's nearing the
>> point of insanity, but it's my life and I get to choose.
>> 
>> Julie
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> 
>> 
>>> Umm. This may well put me over my limit. (Can I have banked posts since I
>> haven't posted in ages?) Anyway, yes, what Marion said. If your dog is
>> definitely for sure retired, representing it as anything else seems to me to
>> be unethical, especially in a case where the dog really isn't doing the work
>> anymore.
>>> Having said that, a couple of additional thoughts:
>>> 
>>> First, when I retired Karl and we rented, our landlord, who was an unusual
>> sort of guy, absolutely knew that Karl was retired, and he let us keep him
>> anyway and didn't charge extra. Sure, I'd have paid it if he had, or made
>> other arrangements if I had to, but I didn't have to, and all the dealings
>> in this regard were completely above board. Just to tell you how unusual
>> Kevin is as a landlord, when we bought our house and left his property, he
>> helped us move. You find me a landlord that would do that.
>>> Second, I also used to think that retirement is retirement is retirement.
>> Now, I think there are certainly cases where retirement can be a bit more
>> fluid than that. Julie, for instance, has two working guides, although her
>> older one likely works a bit less than her younger one nowadays. In my case,
>> Hilde is my everyday guide. However, Leno still wants to go, and he's still
>> capable of doing the job. The reasons for retiring him had to do more with
>> me not wanting to risk him having a seizure too far from home for one, and
>> Hilde needing the work more for another. So when Hilde was ill for a little
>> while, I harnessed up Leno, who was happy for the outing, and he did the job
>> for which he was trained. Yep. I told people that he had come briefly out of
>> retirement. He was good with it, I was good with it, and even though we
>> almost got hit by a truck (it wasn't Leno's fault), he worked well and
>> worked safely. I see no problem with this, but my living situation in regard
>> to what animals I'm allowed to have is pretty flexible, since we own our
>> home.
>>> Naturally, we all have to weigh what's right with what's legal, or put
>> another way, just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you *should* do
>> that thing. I'm in no position to judge what other people do with whatever
>> situation they have, and at the end of the day, whatever decisions we make,
>> we have to live with their consequences, unintended or otherwise.
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 9:17 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired
>> business.
>>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during
>>>> my first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school
>>>> gave me permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me
>>>> because he had been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the
>>>> semester, but I learned some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going to
>>>> class with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not
>>>> destructive, but this fact alone had totally changed the relationship
>>>> between him, me, and the school for that matter.
>>>> 
>>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a
>>>> get-together or a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I
>>>> would need to comply. It would have been wrong for me to argue this
>> point.
>>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit,
>>>> and all of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live
>>>> in that building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades
>>>> no matter where we stayed.
>>>> 
>>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then many
>>>> went home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come
>>>> along, and there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It
>>>> occurred to me just how unfair it was that my dog was there. He
>>>> wasn't a guide anymore, he was a pet. So I made the decision to leave
>>>> him at home after about six weeks. It had helped me through a
>>>> difficult time, but I had risked my relationships with many I think.
>>>> 
>>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He
>>>> was in harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because
>>>> with large tree equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was
>>>> traffic or not. I'm not sure it was ethical for me to do this; I did
>>>> not lie about who he was, and the dentist regarded him as a guide.
>>>> This is not something I would make a practice of because I think he
>>>> either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a situation where pet
>>>> deposits were required,  I would pay it because Fisher is now a pet.
>>>> Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new place to
>>>> live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed
>>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending on
>> the terms of it.
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>>> President via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
>>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> 	In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I
>>>> believe this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law.
>>>> In my opinion, taking advantage of the law by calling a retired service
>> dog "semi retired"
>>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those
>>>> who take advantage of the law that provides us access to places of
>>>> public accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their
>>>> pet as a service dog? It is no different when we call our retired
>>>> service dog semi retired in order to avoid paying a pet deposit.
>>>> Folks, we can't have it both ways! We cannot ask for those who
>>>> misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do so if we are willing to
>> act the same way.
>>>> 	I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived
>>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here
>>>> for the entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your
>>>> integrity by suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics
>>>> and law, you are telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the
>>>> way you want others to think of you?
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>>> Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>>>> not what holds you back.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog
>>>> since you can have two service animals with no problems.  That is what I
>> would do.
>>>> Jordan
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy
>>>> VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> Hey folks,
>>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you guys
>> knew.
>>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current
>> guide.
>>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>>> 
>>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you
>>>> have to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a
>> pet fee?
>>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Nancy
>>>> 
>>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated
>>>> using voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordanandbelto%40g
>>>> mail.co
>>>> m
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon
>>>> .net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.na
>>>> me
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj402%40gmail.
>>> com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pickrellrebecca%40gmail.c
>> om
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj402%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 08:49:02 -0700
> From: Lyn Gwizdak <gwizdaklyn at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>,	Tracy Carcione
> 	<carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
> 	Dogs & Rent
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHTx+LP+kdTd4b6Y-W5v4csfk7piAeBT3eC0jnvwJ8zWMNbuVA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hi all,
> I can see treating a retiring dog as a pet as when the dog is no longer
> safe as a guide. Yeah, then it is a pet or demoted to pet status. You keep
> it home and use a cane full time. If the dog is slowing down but is still
> safe, you can still use it as a guide and it keeps its status as guide. You
> just aren'T working it as much. AnyonE else just needs to know it is your
> guide.
> 
> For me, I have used dogs less as it is nearing retirement. I may tell
> people that it is getting close to retirement due to age. I never have more
> than one dog. I still use the older dog until I know when I am going on
> class. I look for a good home for it and the dog goes to its new home right
> before I go to class. I have nevery been able to keep retired dogs and a
> new guide dog. I can't  afford to properly care for more than one dog.
> 
> Lyn and Aristotle
> 
> On Jun 22, 2017 9:50 AM, "Gary Steeves via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>> hi all
>> 
>> this is an interesting tropic.  I would have to agree with Tracy.   if I
>> had had  Bogart as a retired dog and a new guide dog I certainly had
>> planned on working him from time to time on short little routes  to the
>> mall a few blocks away as long as he was interested.  he wouldn't have been
>> retired, just working from home. :).
>> 
>> also, many of you have heard about British Columbia's new guide dog
>> legislation.  one of the positive things that came out of that is that you
>> now can keep your retired service dog even if you are living in a rental,
>> or strata, that. doesn't allow pets or has size limitations.  that took
>> away one worry.
>> 
>> Gary
>> 
>> 
>> On June 22, 2017 6:55:50 AM PDT, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hi Cindy.
>>> I think you making too black-and-white a line between retired and not
>>> retired.  If your dog can work occasionally, and is useful to you, then
>>> that's fine.  People don't need to know he's retire or not.  He's
>>> working as
>>> a guide; he's a guide.
>>> If you were renting in a place that didn't allow pets, that would be
>>> more of
>>> a grey area, but, if you're using him as a guide to go some place, that
>>> business just needs to know he's a guide, which he is.
>>> JMO.
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:18 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
>>> Dogs &
>>> Rent
>>> 
>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired
>>> business.
>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during my
>>> first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school gave
>>> me
>>> permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me because he
>>> had
>>> been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the semester, but I
>>> learned
>>> some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going to
>>> class
>>> with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not destructive, but
>>> this
>>> fact alone had totally changed the relationship between him, me, and
>>> the
>>> school for that matter.
>>> 
>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a
>>> get-together or
>>> a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I would need to
>>> comply. It
>>> would have been wrong for me to argue this point.
>>> 
>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit, and
>>> all
>>> of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live in that
>>> building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades no matter
>>> where
>>> we stayed.
>>> 
>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then many
>>> went
>>> home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come along,
>>> and
>>> there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It occurred to me just
>>> how
>>> unfair it was that my dog was there. He wasn't a guide anymore, he was
>>> a
>>> pet. So I made the decision to leave him at home after about six weeks.
>>> It
>>> had helped me through a difficult time, but I had risked my
>>> relationships
>>> with many I think.
>>> 
>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He
>>> was in
>>> harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because with large
>>> tree
>>> equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was traffic or not. I'm not
>>> sure
>>> it was ethical for me to do this; I did not lie about who he was, and
>>> the
>>> dentist regarded him as a guide. This is not something I would make a
>>> practice of because I think he either is retired or he isn't. If I were
>>> in a
>>> situation where pet deposits were required,  I would pay it because
>>> Fisher
>>> is now a pet. Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a
>>> new
>>> place to live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't
>>> allowed
>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending on
>>> the
>>> terms of it.
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>> President
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs
>>> &
>>> Rent
>>> 
>>>      In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I
>>> believe
>>> this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law. In my
>>> opinion,
>>> taking advantage of the law by calling a retired service dog "semi
>>> retired"
>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those who
>>> take
>>> advantage of the law that provides us access to places of public
>>> accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their pet as a
>>> service
>>> dog? It is no different when we call our retired service dog semi
>>> retired in
>>> order to avoid paying a pet deposit. Folks, we can't have it both ways!
>>> We
>>> cannot ask for those who misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not
>>> do
>>> so if we are willing to act the same way.
>>> 
>>>      I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived
>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here
>>> for the
>>> entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your integrity
>>> by
>>> suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics and law, you are
>>> telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the way you want others
>>> to
>>> think of you?
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>> Federation of
>>> the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>> people
>>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
>>> holds
>>> you back.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>> 
>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog since
>>> you
>>> can have two service animals with no problems.  That is what I would
>>> do.
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy
>>> VanderBrink
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>> 
>>> Hey folks,
>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you guys
>>> knew.
>>> 
>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current
>>> guide.
>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>> 
>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you
>>> have
>>> to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a pet
>>> fee?
>>> 
>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nancy
>>> 
>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated
>>> using
>>> voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
>> jordanandbelto%40gmail.co
>>> m
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/
>> rainshadowmusic%40shaw.ca
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/gwizdaklyn%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:10:18 -0400
> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
> 	Dogs & Rent
> Message-ID: <0a4001d2ec3b$357c7460$a0755d20$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 				Hi Julie. I just ried writing you back
> privately, I'm not sure if I have the right address for you. 
> Might you have or be willing to give Meghan my contacto info? She and I
> exchanged some messages back in the day so she may also remember me. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:36 AM
> To: Star Gazer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
> Rent
> 
> Yes, Rebecca, I remember you!
> 
> When I initially started the process of deciding and finding a private
> trainer, I wanted a contract.  I wanted everything to be clearly spelled
> out.  I wanted no problems or misunderstandings.
> 
> After Meghan agreed and I thought more about the contract, it seemed kind of
> pointless.  I could put anything I wanted in there, but it didn't really
> ensure it would solve any issues.  It would give me documentation to refer
> to if the whole thing went badly and I pursued it 
> in court.   The contract wasn't going to prevent problems.  It would 
> only give me a way to seek compensation after the fact.  In the end I
> decided to not have a written contract.  I think it's probably a good idea.
> If others decide to have a dog privately trained I would strongly encourage
> you to think through the idea and contents of a contract.
> 
> I found the breeder and picked Jetta from the litter.  Meghan provided the
> puppy raising and basic guide skill training.  If it was obvious to Meghan
> very early in the process that Jetta  was absolutely not going to work out,
> it would have been my responsibility to keep Jetta as a pet or find her a
> home.  Meghan offered to help, but ultimately that would have been my
> responsibility.
> 
> On the idea of Jetta not working out after all the training...I never had an
> expectation of any guarantees.  There are so many variables: did I pick the
> right puppy, did she get the right socialization, did she have the right
> temperament to guide, was her health sound, was she a good fit for my
> lifestyle, and so much more.  Meghan can't control for most of those
> variables.  I think it would be unfair to expect that she offer some sort of
> guarantee that I end up with a working guide at the end.  I went into it
> with the same attitude that I have about owner training.  All you can do is
> all you can do and you have to deal with the rest as it comes.  I don't
> place blame on anyone, stuff just happens.
> 
> It ended up that about 6 months after coming here Jetta developed some
> fairly significant dog issues.  Was that Meghan's fault?Is Jetta genetically
> wired to react to other dogs?  Did Jetta have some traumatic experience that
> I didn't recognize as traumatic? Did I do something 
> wrong in the way I handled Jetta?   Who knows. It's just a thing that 
> happened.  I talked to Meghan and she helped me through those tough times,
> but again it was my responsibility to deal with the issues.
> 
> My expectations were that Meghan would love and care for Jetta in the year
> she was there.  She was to ensure that Jetta got the veterinary care she
> needed, with my knowledge and approval and at my expense.  
> Jetta ate the food I chose.  She attended the obedience/other classes that
> Meghan suggested and that I approved.  I detailed the kinds of things Jetta
> would encounter living here and Meghan made sure Jetta was exposed to as
> many as was practical.  I provided a detailed list of the guide commands I
> wanted and what I meant exactly by each term.  Example, I use straight to
> literally mean go straight, not to cross to the up curb. Meghan provided
> regular written reports and we talked by phone When it got close to when
> Meghan brought Jetta back I came up with the places I wanted to go and the
> specific things I wanted to work on.
> 
> It was very much like owner training, except Meghan did the hard work.  
> I think Meghan did an excellent job and I would highly recommend her to
> anyone thinking of hiring a private trainer. Please understand though
> private training is not like attending a school.  Expect to have a much
> greater level of input into the process and much greater responsibility in
> the outcome.
> 
> Julie
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> throughout the whole process.
> 
> On 6/23/2017 9:59 AM, Star Gazer via NAGDU wrote:
>> 	This is interesting Julie.
>> I'm curious, and Meghan, if you're on here or can get this note, I'd 
>> like to ask you too. How do you write your contracts so you don't get 
>> screwed finantially and professionally when a dog can't or doesn't 
>> work out? What does "work out" mean in terms of your contract? Is 
>> there a period of performance?
>> You and I talked awhile back, and I've always liked you. You may or 
>> may not remember me.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie 
>> Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:26 AM
>> To: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
>> Dogs & Rent
>> 
>> Buddy is correct I do currently have two working guides.  That wasn't 
>> exactly my plan, but life happens.
>> 
>> Monty was having some difficulties.  On the way to work he was going 
>> super, super snails pace slow.  He's always been a fast dog.  He would 
>> also stop randomly and for no apparent reason.  He was showing signs 
>> of being stressed.  I decided to start another dog.  Remember I 
>> owner/private train, so the time line is different.
>> 
>> I sent Jetta off to live and train with Meghan for a year.  She came 
>> back to me at 14 months old with excellent obedience, socialization 
>> and a solid foundation in guide skills.  Still she was only 14 months 
>> old and I was hesitant to have her work full time.  I was concerned 
>> about her mental maturity and experience level.  I wanted to take it 
>> easy with her for 6 to
>> 12 months while I gently eased her into full time guide work.  During 
>> that time I planned on easing Monty into retirement.  Good 
>> plan...didn't work out though.
>> 
>> Instead I ended up leaving my job after much financial and 
>> programmatic drama, nothing to do with blindness, just politics and grant
> funding.
>> Jetta came in August, job ended in November. That winter into spring 
>> Jetta developed a fairly serious dog reactivity issue.  I pulled back 
>> her work to pretty much training only.
>> 
>> Monty was doing most of the actual guide work.  Interestingly his pace 
>> picked up to normal.  He totally quit the stopping at random places.  
>> It was my job he hated, not his.  Over the next year Monty 110% 
>> bounced back to his former self.  He loves to guide and does a 
>> completely safe and solid job of it.
>> 
>> I spent a year working through every training technique I knew of and 
>> some new ones in an attempt to get Jetta past her nonsense. In January 
>> of 2016 I had pretty much decided I was done and she was not going to 
>> ever work as a guide.  I own my home and can have multiple dogs with no
>> legal issues.   After taking a total break with her, I didn't even take
>> her on a walk for a month, I tried one last technique to address the 
>> dog issues and got results.
>> 
>> So for about the last year or so I've had two guides that are capable of
>> working at any given moment.   It ended up being pretty crazy, but it's
>> my life.  I'm really very comfortable with changing the 
>> working/retired/in training status of a dog if the situation warrants 
>> it.  However I don't rent, so there are no legal issues with my 
>> housing.  My city allows for multiple pets in private homes, so even 
>> if they are both retired/in training I'm still legal.  My state laws 
>> have provisions for dogs in training. So it works out.
>> 
>> And to answer the question everyone is wondering, I do stick with my 
>> dogs through thick and thin.  I don't give up easily.  Maybe it's 
>> nearing the point of insanity, but it's my life and I get to choose.
>> 
>> Julie
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> 
>> 
>>> Umm. This may well put me over my limit. (Can I have banked posts 
>>> since I
>> haven't posted in ages?) Anyway, yes, what Marion said. If your dog is 
>> definitely for sure retired, representing it as anything else seems to 
>> me to be unethical, especially in a case where the dog really isn't 
>> doing the work anymore.
>>> Having said that, a couple of additional thoughts:
>>> 
>>> First, when I retired Karl and we rented, our landlord, who was an 
>>> unusual
>> sort of guy, absolutely knew that Karl was retired, and he let us keep 
>> him anyway and didn't charge extra. Sure, I'd have paid it if he had, 
>> or made other arrangements if I had to, but I didn't have to, and all 
>> the dealings in this regard were completely above board. Just to tell 
>> you how unusual Kevin is as a landlord, when we bought our house and 
>> left his property, he helped us move. You find me a landlord that would do
> that.
>>> Second, I also used to think that retirement is retirement is retirement.
>> Now, I think there are certainly cases where retirement can be a bit 
>> more fluid than that. Julie, for instance, has two working guides, 
>> although her older one likely works a bit less than her younger one 
>> nowadays. In my case, Hilde is my everyday guide. However, Leno still 
>> wants to go, and he's still capable of doing the job. The reasons for 
>> retiring him had to do more with me not wanting to risk him having a 
>> seizure too far from home for one, and Hilde needing the work more for 
>> another. So when Hilde was ill for a little while, I harnessed up 
>> Leno, who was happy for the outing, and he did the job for which he 
>> was trained. Yep. I told people that he had come briefly out of 
>> retirement. He was good with it, I was good with it, and even though 
>> we almost got hit by a truck (it wasn't Leno's fault), he worked well 
>> and worked safely. I see no problem with this, but my living situation 
>> in regard to what animals I'm allowed to have is pretty flexible, since we
> own our home.
>>> Naturally, we all have to weigh what's right with what's legal, or 
>>> put
>> another way, just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you 
>> *should* do that thing. I'm in no position to judge what other people 
>> do with whatever situation they have, and at the end of the day, 
>> whatever decisions we make, we have to live with their consequences,
> unintended or otherwise.
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 9:17 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired
>> business.
>>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during 
>>>> my first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school 
>>>> gave me permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me 
>>>> because he had been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the 
>>>> semester, but I learned some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going 
>>>> to class with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not 
>>>> destructive, but this fact alone had totally changed the 
>>>> relationship between him, me, and the school for that matter.
>>>> 
>>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a 
>>>> get-together or a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I 
>>>> would need to comply. It would have been wrong for me to argue this
>> point.
>>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit, 
>>>> and all of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not 
>>>> live in that building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by 
>>>> spades no matter where we stayed.
>>>> 
>>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then 
>>>> many went home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't 
>>>> come along, and there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It 
>>>> occurred to me just how unfair it was that my dog was there. He 
>>>> wasn't a guide anymore, he was a pet. So I made the decision to 
>>>> leave him at home after about six weeks. It had helped me through a 
>>>> difficult time, but I had risked my relationships with many I think.
>>>> 
>>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the 
>>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He 
>>>> was in harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because 
>>>> with large tree equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was 
>>>> traffic or not. I'm not sure it was ethical for me to do this; I did 
>>>> not lie about who he was, and the dentist regarded him as a guide.
>>>> This is not something I would make a practice of because I think he 
>>>> either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a situation where pet 
>>>> deposits were required,  I would pay it because Fisher is now a pet.
>>>> Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new place to 
>>>> live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed 
>>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a 
>>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending 
>>>> on
>> the terms of it.
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU 
>>>> President via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
>>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> 	In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The 
>>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I 
>>>> believe this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law.
>>>> In my opinion, taking advantage of the law by calling a retired 
>>>> service
>> dog "semi retired"
>>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those 
>>>> who take advantage of the law that provides us access to places of 
>>>> public accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their 
>>>> pet as a service dog? It is no different when we call our retired 
>>>> service dog semi retired in order to avoid paying a pet deposit.
>>>> Folks, we can't have it both ways! We cannot ask for those who 
>>>> misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do so if we are 
>>>> willing to
>> act the same way.
>>>> 	I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived 
>>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here 
>>>> for the entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your 
>>>> integrity by suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics 
>>>> and law, you are telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the 
>>>> way you want others to think of you?
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>>>> Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind 
>>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>>>> not what holds you back.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog 
>>>> since you can have two service animals with no problems.  That is 
>>>> what I
>> would do.
>>>> Jordan
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy 
>>>> VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> Hey folks,
>>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you 
>>>> guys
>> knew.
>>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current
>> guide.
>>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>>> 
>>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do 
>>>> you have to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to 
>>>> then pay a
>> pet fee?
>>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Nancy
>>>> 
>>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated 
>>>> using voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordanandbelto%40
>>>> g
>>>> mail.co
>>>> m
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizo
>>>> n
>>>> .net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.
>>>> c
>>>> om
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>> NAGDU:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.n
>>>> a
>>>> me
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj402%40gmail.
>>> com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pickrellrebecca%40g
>> mail.c
>> om
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj402%40gmail.
>> com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pickrellrebecca%40gmail.c
> om
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:06:13 -0500
> From: "Raul A. Gallegos" <raul at raulgallegos.com>
> To: Houston NFB Chapter List <houstonnfbchapterlist at googlegroups.com>
> Cc: txagdu at nfbtx.org, NAGDU List <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Fwd: [NFBT] National Convention 2017 and the Canute
> Message-ID: <282ed330-697b-6e91-fc8e-040700bf6dd8 at raulgallegos.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> Hello all. I'm sharing the following. I want to check this out.
> 
> 
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: [NFBT] National Convention 2017 and the Canute
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:46:39 +0000
> From: Steinle, Kyle J <kyle.j.steinle at ttu.edu>
> To: member at nfbtx.org <member at nfbtx.org>
> 
> Dear NFBTX Members,
> 
> Although I am unable to attend the National Convention 2017, Ed will be 
> there from July 11th to the 13th with the latest prototype of the 
> Canute! I met Ed at the ICEB 6th General Assembly (last year), so let me 
> describe what the Canute is: The Canute is a multi-line braille display 
> that the latest prototype displays three hundred and sixty (360) braille 
> cells, which is nine (9) lines of forty (40) cells. The size is 14 in. 
> by 8 in. by 2 in. The Canute intends to be on the market either by the 
> end of this year or next year. Now you may think that this costs an arm 
> and a leg, but its price is around ?600, which is $762.00. If you do 
> visit Ed's booth, then please tell him that I wish that I could see this 
> latest prototype of the Canute. Until we shall meet again, have an 
> excellent day and God be with you!
> 
> Sincerely,
> Kyle J. Steinle, M.A.
> Graduate Research Assistant
> Texas Tech University
> 
> "And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed 
> them." (Matt.21:14)
> 
> -- 
> National Federation of the Blind of Texas "Live the life you want."
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Members" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to member+unsubscribe at nfbtx.org.
> To post to this group, send email to member at nfbtx.org.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:55:54 -0500
> From: Wayne & Harley <k9dad at k9di.org>
> To: Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
> 	Dogs & Rent
> Message-ID: <037f9066-cc51-e68a-c5fa-67ec7a8b9af8 at k9di.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> *    Hello Stacie,
> I'd like to offer a small clarification. While I agree with your 
> sentiment, there does need some clarifying.
> No dog, whether a Service Animal, or a pet have any rights.
> Perhaps you meant to say "**When our Service Animals retire, we no 
> longer have the same rights as when our Service Animal is working". 
> Meaning that we no longer have the right to be accompanied by the 
> retired Service Animal in public, nor the right to not have to pay a pet 
> deposit for the retired Service Animal. I agree that those passing their 
> retired Service Animals off as working to claim benefits not due them is 
> definitely making it more difficult for owners of working Service Animals.
> 
> Wayne And Harley D
> k9dad at k9di.org
> "Remember, all Guide Dogs are Service Dogs, but not all Service Dogs are 
> Guide Dogs". ( I don't know who to attribute this to).
> 
> *
> 
> On 6/22/2017 8:46 PM, Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> We're just getting back from traveling, and I'm getting caught on some 
>> email. Saw this thread, and decided to read and respond. I completely 
>> agree with what Marion has said. When our guide dogs retire, they are 
>> no longer given the same rights as working guide or service dogs. I 
>> think people who try to pass off their retired guide dogs to get 
>> certain benefits are making things difficult for the working guide 
>> dogs. Just my thoughts. Looking forward to seeing some of you in 
>> Orlando. Warm regards.
>> 
>> Stacie Hardy <shardy at nfbtx.org>
>> President: NFB of Texas Houston Chapter
>> Voice and Text: (346) 704-0190 or (832) 779-7477
>> 
>> "A question never asked is an answer never known"
>> "Live the life you want!"
>> 
>> On 6/21/2017 8:50 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU wrote:
>>> The only thing I would say about this semi-retired thing is that people
>>> don't get it. Let's imagine that you aren't paying a pet deposit because
>>> your dog is a guide except that now he is semi-retired. Let's imagine 
>>> he was
>>> left alone in the apartment and, say, a thunderstorm came up and 
>>> those freak
>>> im out. Let's imagine you have not seen this fact in him before, but 
>>> suppose
>>> he tore up the place in a panic while he was at home enjoying
>>> semi-retirement. Would you then offer to pay for the damage? Might the
>>> landlord not think that you were being a bit flexible of the dog's 
>>> place in
>>> life? I think I would not differentiate between retired and working 
>>> unless
>>> he is truly retired. If the dog was having problems where he couldn't 
>>> always
>>> work, I would just say he's my guide if he were still working in that
>>> capacity.
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:29 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordanandbelto at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
>>> Dogs &
>>> Rent
>>> 
>>> Semi retired means only working part time due to old age or helth.  
>>> So, I
>>> don't think there is any problem in doing what I said.
>>> Jordan
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:18 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
>>> Dogs &
>>> Rent
>>> 
>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired 
>>> business.
>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during my
>>> first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school 
>>> gave me
>>> permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me because he 
>>> had
>>> been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the semester, but I 
>>> learned
>>> some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going to 
>>> class
>>> with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not destructive, 
>>> but this
>>> fact alone had totally changed the relationship between him, me, and the
>>> school for that matter.
>>> 
>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a 
>>> get-together or
>>> a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I would need to 
>>> comply. It
>>> would have been wrong for me to argue this point.
>>> 
>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit, 
>>> and all
>>> of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live in that
>>> building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades no 
>>> matter where
>>> we stayed.
>>> 
>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then many 
>>> went
>>> home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come 
>>> along, and
>>> there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It occurred to me 
>>> just how
>>> unfair it was that my dog was there. He wasn't a guide anymore, he was a
>>> pet. So I made the decision to leave him at home after about six 
>>> weeks. It
>>> had helped me through a difficult time, but I had risked my 
>>> relationships
>>> with many I think.
>>> 
>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He 
>>> was in
>>> harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because with 
>>> large tree
>>> equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was traffic or not. I'm 
>>> not sure
>>> it was ethical for me to do this; I did not lie about who he was, and 
>>> the
>>> dentist regarded him as a guide. This is not something I would make a
>>> practice of because I think he either is retired or he isn't. If I 
>>> were in a
>>> situation where pet deposits were required,  I would pay it because 
>>> Fisher
>>> is now a pet. Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a 
>>> new
>>> place to live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't 
>>> allowed
>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending 
>>> on the
>>> terms of it.
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU 
>>> President
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>>> Rent
>>> 
>>>    In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I 
>>> believe
>>> this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law. In my 
>>> opinion,
>>> taking advantage of the law by calling a retired service dog "semi 
>>> retired"
>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those 
>>> who take
>>> advantage of the law that provides us access to places of public
>>> accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their pet as a 
>>> service
>>> dog? It is no different when we call our retired service dog semi 
>>> retired in
>>> order to avoid paying a pet deposit. Folks, we can't have it both 
>>> ways! We
>>> cannot ask for those who misrepresent their pets as service dogs to 
>>> not do
>>> so if we are willing to act the same way.
>>> 
>>>    I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived
>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here 
>>> for the
>>> entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your integrity by
>>> suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics and law, you are
>>> telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the way you want 
>>> others to
>>> think of you?
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>>> Federation of
>>> the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  
>>> people
>>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what 
>>> holds
>>> you back.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>> 
>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog 
>>> since you
>>> can have two service animals with no problems.  That is what I would do.
>>> Jordan
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy 
>>> VanderBrink
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>> 
>>> Hey folks,
>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you 
>>> guys knew.
>>> 
>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current 
>>> guide.
>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>> 
>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you 
>>> have
>>> to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a 
>>> pet fee?
>>> 
>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nancy
>>> 
>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated using
>>> voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 07:25:18 -0400
> From: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: Wayne & Harley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
> 	Dogs & Rent
> Message-ID: <ef0157e2-a903-8e31-8e84-edbc2361df0b at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> not really, what is this magical thing that says the dog is retired or 
> not, I thought the law referred to the training the dog has and so on 
> rather than some magical retirement, the same as the question of 
> equipment, it's not the equipment but the training of the dog that makes 
> it a service animal.
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/23/2017 7:55 PM, Wayne & Harley via NAGDU wrote:
>> * Hello Stacie,
>> I'd like to offer a small clarification. While I agree with your 
>> sentiment, there does need some clarifying.
>> No dog, whether a Service Animal, or a pet have any rights.
>> Perhaps you meant to say "**When our Service Animals retire, we no 
>> longer have the same rights as when our Service Animal is working". 
>> Meaning that we no longer have the right to be accompanied by the 
>> retired Service Animal in public, nor the right to not have to pay a 
>> pet deposit for the retired Service Animal. I agree that those passing 
>> their retired Service Animals off as working to claim benefits not due 
>> them is definitely making it more difficult for owners of working 
>> Service Animals.
>> 
>> Wayne And Harley D
>> k9dad at k9di.org
>> "Remember, all Guide Dogs are Service Dogs, but not all Service Dogs 
>> are Guide Dogs". ( I don't know who to attribute this to).
>> 
>> *
>> 
>> On 6/22/2017 8:46 PM, Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>> 
>>> We're just getting back from traveling, and I'm getting caught on 
>>> some email. Saw this thread, and decided to read and respond. I 
>>> completely agree with what Marion has said. When our guide dogs 
>>> retire, they are no longer given the same rights as working guide or 
>>> service dogs. I think people who try to pass off their retired guide 
>>> dogs to get certain benefits are making things difficult for the 
>>> working guide dogs. Just my thoughts. Looking forward to seeing some 
>>> of you in Orlando. Warm regards.
>>> 
>>> Stacie Hardy <shardy at nfbtx.org>
>>> President: NFB of Texas Houston Chapter
>>> Voice and Text: (346) 704-0190 or (832) 779-7477
>>> 
>>> "A question never asked is an answer never known"
>>> "Live the life you want!"
>>> 
>>> On 6/21/2017 8:50 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> The only thing I would say about this semi-retired thing is that people
>>>> don't get it. Let's imagine that you aren't paying a pet deposit 
>>>> because
>>>> your dog is a guide except that now he is semi-retired. Let's 
>>>> imagine he was
>>>> left alone in the apartment and, say, a thunderstorm came up and 
>>>> those freak
>>>> im out. Let's imagine you have not seen this fact in him before, but 
>>>> suppose
>>>> he tore up the place in a panic while he was at home enjoying
>>>> semi-retirement. Would you then offer to pay for the damage? Might the
>>>> landlord not think that you were being a bit flexible of the dog's 
>>>> place in
>>>> life? I think I would not differentiate between retired and working 
>>>> unless
>>>> he is truly retired. If the dog was having problems where he 
>>>> couldn't always
>>>> work, I would just say he's my guide if he were still working in that
>>>> capacity.
>>>> 
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>>> Gallacher
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:29 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordanandbelto at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was 
>>>> Retired Dogs &
>>>> Rent
>>>> 
>>>> Semi retired means only working part time due to old age or helth.  
>>>> So, I
>>>> don't think there is any problem in doing what I said.
>>>> Jordan
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray 
>>>> via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:18 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was 
>>>> Retired Dogs &
>>>> Rent
>>>> 
>>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired 
>>>> business.
>>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during my
>>>> first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school 
>>>> gave me
>>>> permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me because 
>>>> he had
>>>> been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the semester, but I 
>>>> learned
>>>> some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going 
>>>> to class
>>>> with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not destructive, 
>>>> but this
>>>> fact alone had totally changed the relationship between him, me, and 
>>>> the
>>>> school for that matter.
>>>> 
>>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a 
>>>> get-together or
>>>> a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I would need to 
>>>> comply. It
>>>> would have been wrong for me to argue this point.
>>>> 
>>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit, 
>>>> and all
>>>> of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live in that
>>>> building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades no 
>>>> matter where
>>>> we stayed.
>>>> 
>>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then 
>>>> many went
>>>> home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come 
>>>> along, and
>>>> there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It occurred to me 
>>>> just how
>>>> unfair it was that my dog was there. He wasn't a guide anymore, he 
>>>> was a
>>>> pet. So I made the decision to leave him at home after about six 
>>>> weeks. It
>>>> had helped me through a difficult time, but I had risked my 
>>>> relationships
>>>> with many I think.
>>>> 
>>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He 
>>>> was in
>>>> harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because with 
>>>> large tree
>>>> equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was traffic or not. I'm 
>>>> not sure
>>>> it was ethical for me to do this; I did not lie about who he was, 
>>>> and the
>>>> dentist regarded him as a guide. This is not something I would make a
>>>> practice of because I think he either is retired or he isn't. If I 
>>>> were in a
>>>> situation where pet deposits were required,  I would pay it because 
>>>> Fisher
>>>> is now a pet. Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find 
>>>> a new
>>>> place to live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't 
>>>> allowed
>>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending 
>>>> on the
>>>> terms of it.
>>>> 
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU 
>>>> President
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
>>>> Dogs &
>>>> Rent
>>>> 
>>>>    In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I 
>>>> believe
>>>> this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law. In my 
>>>> opinion,
>>>> taking advantage of the law by calling a retired service dog "semi 
>>>> retired"
>>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those 
>>>> who take
>>>> advantage of the law that provides us access to places of public
>>>> accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their pet as a 
>>>> service
>>>> dog? It is no different when we call our retired service dog semi 
>>>> retired in
>>>> order to avoid paying a pet deposit. Folks, we can't have it both 
>>>> ways! We
>>>> cannot ask for those who misrepresent their pets as service dogs to 
>>>> not do
>>>> so if we are willing to act the same way.
>>>> 
>>>>    I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived
>>>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here 
>>>> for the
>>>> entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your 
>>>> integrity by
>>>> suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics and law, you are
>>>> telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the way you want 
>>>> others to
>>>> think of you?
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>>>> Federation of
>>>> the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  
>>>> people
>>>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not 
>>>> what holds
>>>> you back.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>>> Gallacher
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog 
>>>> since you
>>>> can have two service animals with no problems.  That is what I would 
>>>> do.
>>>> Jordan
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy 
>>>> VanderBrink
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>> 
>>>> Hey folks,
>>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you 
>>>> guys knew.
>>>> 
>>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current 
>>>> guide.
>>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>>> 
>>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do 
>>>> you have
>>>> to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a 
>>>> pet fee?
>>>> 
>>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Nancy
>>>> 
>>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated 
>>>> using
>>>> voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> m
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> m
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
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