[NAGDU] Ethics, Morals, Laws, and, Retired Dogs & Rent

[Heather Bird]

	The first question is, do you mean legally? or morally? Legally, no,
you cannot continue to keep the retired guide  in your rented property like
a service dog. That means if it is pet free housing, you must either move or
retire the dog to someone else's home. If pets are welcome, but dogs over 30
lb aren't allowed, then your dog must go, retired guide or not. If your
complex has breed limits and you have a German shepherd or a Doberman, then
your dog must leave. If your retired guide is welcome as a pet but monthly
charges or an extra pet deposit are required, then you must now pay these.
Now, that is legally. Morally? Well, if your dog is either very old or very
sick and doesn't have long to live, and or if your dog is supremely attached
to you and wouldn't cope well with being rehomed, then I would just not tell
management that my guide was retired and hope that they don't question the
situation. Now, if your dog damages the property whether they are a working
guide, a pet or a retired guide or a retired guide flying under the radar,
you are of course responsible to pay for the repair and or replacement of
anything damaged by your dog. If your dog is retired and is well-behaved,
does not bark or otherwise act disruptive, or damage anything, then you are
not that likely to either be caught, or if caught to be penalized. On the
other hand if your dog is retiring because of medical issues that are
causing them to urinate or defecate indoors, or if they have had a break
down making them unsafe in traffic that also causes them to howl during
thunder storms, then keeping your retired dog could very well get the dog or
you and the dog kicked out. How these dogs will react if left home is also
an issue, even if they haven't had a break down or a serious medical issue.
They are born in a breeding station or puppy farm, or whelping laboratory,
whatever your school calls it and surrounded by their mom, siblings and many
volunteers and vet staff. Then they go into puppy raising homes where they
live with someone or a whole family pretty much 24 7. Most raisers get
permission to have their puppy in training attend classes with them, or come
to work with them, and they take them into other public places, so they are
rarely left home alone. Then they go into the kennel at the school and while
the trainer might only work with them for 2 to 4 hours a day, they are
surrounded by other dogs and often have a friend right in their kennel run
with them, and many kennel staff play with, feed and groom them. Then they
are given to you and live in your room for two to four weeks, literally 24
7. Then they go home with you and go almost everywhere with you almost all
of the time. Going from that to being left home many hours a day for all or
most days in a week, could lead to some very serious behavioral issues. The
dog who could be left once in a while for the day with no harm done might
start to rip up your carpets, (thank you Frieda) or howl like a demented
timber wolf when you leave )yes, also Frieda) have relieving accidents
without reason, chew on the furniture, demolish clothing, stuffed animals,
learn new tricks like opening the toilet lid, the refrigerator or door
knobs. One retired guide I know even started knocking the phone off of the
hook and learned how to hit the button on the carbon monoxide detector at
baseboard level which caused the emergency services to show up, much to the
dog's delight. It took three times before they realized that the dog was
intentionally doing it, then running to the door to wait for her new friends
from EMS to show up. So when you are considering retiring the dog try some
trial separations during the day to see how they do. If you keep them, in my
opinion, morally, if not legally, then you will need to know that you can
trust them. If they are being rehomed by you or by your school you will want
to know what if any separation issues your dog has so that the adopting
family can be aware and take steps to prevent or cope with these issues.
There are risks in flying under the radar, but for some they are worth it.
Realistically, since you are not exempt from repairing damages, in any
scenario: working guide, retired guide, pet... it doesn't make any technical
difference to the apartment complex. If your dog works until the day they
die or they retire at age 9 and live until age 12, if they aren't causing
any harm, then you aren't causing any harm by not reporting their change of
status, and if they do cause damage, even if they are still in service, then
you still are legally and morally responsible for fixing the damage.
Morally, I think that we owe it to these dogs to ensure that they have good
retirement homes. This can be done by finding a home yourself, by allowing
your school to do so, or by keeping the dog yourself. If your dog is very
old, very ill, or is not very emotionally adaptable, then the rehoming
options with or without your school's help might be much less kind,
realistic or fair to your dog, but many dogs do just fine retiring to the
homes of people other than their handlers. You know your dog best and you
will know how well, or not, your dog would handle being rehomed. Some dogs
take to their new owners right away and even act indifferent or neutral
towards their former handlers. Most are happy with their new family and also
happy if the handler were to visit. Some, however pine and stop eating, run
away to try and find their handler, or develop extremely destructive habits
when rehomed, that would not have cropped up had they been allowed to stay
with their handlers. It depends on the age, health status, gender, breed and
temperament of the dog, also on the degree of work drive in the dog and the
quality of the handler dog partnership. If the handler was not unkind, but
never really loved the dog, then the dog might be even happier with their
retirement family then with the handler. If the dog was extremely closely
bonded to the handler, then it could be devastating to the dog. If the dog
is ill or injured this stress combine with separation from the handler could
literally kill them. Also how much they liked to work. Some dogs tolerate or
mildly like the work, because they love the handler. Others love the handler
because they provide the work and the dog loves to work. I know a shepherd
who was retired because of joint issues. The dog would wine and cry when
left behind and crashed through a window to follow the handler to work. The
dog was crated and went absolutely crazy howling and yelping. So, he was
taken out of retirement and given nutritional supplements and a more
comfortable nylon harness, not the kind that Julie sells, but from how it
was described to me, it was similar, plus extra fleece padding. That dog was
a little stiff and in some serious discomfort, but not serious pain, but was
as happy as a clam. He worked until the day he died. One day they went to
get on the bus and the dog couldn't manage it, so the handler lifted him up.
They went to work, then came home for the day, and the dog walked slowly
home. The handler lifted him up the porch steps and he laid down in harness,
laid his head on their lap and wagged his tale, sighed deeply, swished his
tail a few more times, then was still and died, one of the happiest dogs
alive. I can't imagine how that dog would have pined and suffered had it
been rehomed out of hand. I have also seen dogs who were very adaptable.
They loved being guides, they loved being retired. They loved their
handlers, they loved their new family. They were just adjustable, generally
happy dogs who went with the flow, and flouting the rules simply for the
handler's enjoyment with such an adaptable dog would be less morally
justified, and certainly not legally justified.

Now, if you do have a legitimate mental health condition, and if it really
and truly would cause you serious psychological distress to send your dog
away, you could get your retired guide dog reclassified as an emotional
support dog, but you would have to genuinely fit both of those above
criteria. I have no problem, morally not informing management of the status
change, but faking the need for an emotional support dog is not acceptable.
Another option is to be honest and approach management and say "Look,
technically Juno is retired and is a pet now. I am asking that you continue
to allow him to live with me without other expenses or in spite of your no
pets policy. He has faithfully served me for many years, literally saving my
life many times. Additionally he has never caused any damage or disruption
on this property. You are not legally obligated to extend me this courtesy,
but I am respectfully asking for you to do so on the moral grounds that he
has demonstrated nothing but good behavior in the past and therefore, he,
and I, can be trusted to behave responsibly, and also he has served me for
many years and deserves to remain in a safe, healthy and familiar
environment for his retirement."

Marian made one statement that I have to respectfully disagree with. He said
something along the lines that keeping a retired guide and not informing
management makes things harder for, or might cause problems for people with
working guides. I have to say that this really isn't true, in that, if our
dogs cause no problems, then no one really knows, and management does not
get upset, and nothing really changes or is affected. A poorly behaving
service dog, in service or retired does very real damage, but a well-behaved
dog, causing no harm does no damage. Similarly, a well-behaved fake service
dog does little or no harm to real service dog teams, but a miss-behaving
legitimate service dog does very serious harm to our access rights. Now, a
misbehaving fake service dog will do serious harm as well. The key phrase
here is misbehaving. If a dog causes problems, school trained, or owner
trained or fake, big or small, bully breed or popular family pet breed, for
an invisible disability or an obvious one, legally allowed or not, then it
will cause problems for all of us. Morally it is very wrong to fake a
disability to gain access with an untrained dog, because of how it
disrespects people with real disabilities, faking service dog status even if
you have a disability, if the dog is not trained is morally wrong because it
disrespects all of the hard work that the puppy raisers, trainers, school
staff, or owner trainer has done to make their dog effective as a service
dog and safe in public. So, I guess I was wrong when I said that there were
two arenas, moral and legal, logistical is a third. Example. Faking a
service dog status for a pet dog and a disability status for yourself is
morally and legally wrong and logistically stupid, as the dog is likely to
misbehave and cause problems for you, your dog, the business and legitimate
service dog teams. Faking the service dog status and the disability with a
supremely well trained and socialized pet dog is morally and legally wrong,
but logistically isn't a huge deal. Faking service dog status for a
well-trained pet dog when you have a disability is morally wrong, legally
wrong, but not logistically a big deal. Having no disability and having
custody of a real trained service dog and using that training for access is
legally and morally wrong, but morally it is wrong in a different way from
the previous scenario, and logistically it is not a big deal. In the case of
keeping a retired guide dog n housing with size, breed or et restrictions
without informing management is legally wrong, morally right or wrong
depending on the situation, and logistically not a problem. I know this is
complicated, but it is absolutely not a black and white issue. The reason
that pet free housing exists, or breed restrictions, or size restrictions is
for the safety, comfort and convenience of the other people living in the
housing. However, if they are allergic to dogs your dog does not suddenly
start shedding more profusely once they retire. Hanging up the harness does
not suddenly make the safe, friendly dog into a vicious, dangerous dog, that
will frighten those afraid of dogs. So, for the purposes of doing what the
restrictions are intended to do, having a retired guide, vs. a working guide
living in the housing doesn't make one bit of difference. The policies,
rules and laws pertaining to pet dogs that do not pertain to guides, for the
most part, would not be necessary if all owners of dogs trained them,
socialized them and properly fed, groomed, bathed, housed and cared for
them. However, unfortunately, human beings cannot always be counted on to be
responsible for themselves, let alone for their dogs. Much of what we
mandate through law is really demeaning and aggravating, but necessary
because people can do some really stupid, insensitive, detrimental things if
left to their own devices. I do many things that are not considered best
practice or socially acceptable by mainstream culture, but they are not
illegal, however, if they became illegal, I would still continue to do them.
For instance, we bed-share in our house, and there has been talk of making
that illegal, if they do change the law, I'm sure as heck not going to stop
bed-sharing, just because some idiots did things like sleep with infants
with tons of blankets and pillows, bed-sharing while drinking, taking sleep
medications or doing drugs, or bed-shared with infants on unsafe surfaces
such as couches, water beds, etc. Just like if my school decided that we
were not allowed to feed our dogs raw. I would not obey that rule and would
continue to feed raw, responsibly, and would not let some uninformed or
irresponsible people who fed raw unsafely or improperly ruin it for me and
my dog. Pet free rules and related regulations were designed to mitigate the
effects of ignorant, irresponsible or lazy pet owners, in most, but of
course, not all, cases. As I, with a retired guide would suddenly not turn
into an irresponsible, ignorant, negligent or lazy dog owner, I would not
abide by all, or most of those policies.

To this I want to delve into some of the grey area. If we are talking paying
a pet fee, then it makes less sense to avoid the policy, however if we are
talking 100% pet free, then that is far more reason to not comply. Paying an
extra fee every month is annoying and unnecessary, but it is doable for most
people unless they are truly in dire straits. However, living somewhere
where pet dogs of any kind are simply not allowed is a much bigger problem,
because it does not give the handler the option to be honest and still
continue to live where they are. So, the degree to which following the
policy would harm the handler and or the dog is a large part of the issue.
If I have the money to pay the pet deposit without taking necessary food,
shelter, clothing or school supplies out of the hands of the rest of my
family, then I would let management know and pay the fee. However, if the
fee was very high and or I was very poor, I would not let them know. Or, if
they had a policy against dogs of any kind, or dogs over 30 lb, or a breed
restriction on German Shepherds, I would absolutely not tell them a thing
about my dog being retired, and I, personally will defend my stance as a
moral if not a legal one. I have done many things in my time that were in
the spirit, but not the letter of the law, and I will continue to do them. I
once helped break into a car where a dog was passed out from heat stroke. A
child I was babysitting once accidentally stole something, we are talking an
18 month child in a back pack carrier grabbing a small 2 dollar package of
sparkly stickers. I brought the item back and they went crazy, even though I
was returning it to the store, unopened and un-damaged since it had not been
paid for. They kept talking about shop lifting, and security and I said
"Look, take the stupid stickers and stop harassing us, or give them back to
me and I'll just pay for them, but get a grip and some perspective, this kid
is a year and a half and she just saw something sparkly and pretty and
grabbed it. She has this crinkle toy on the clip on the carrier and I
thought she was playing with that or I would have taken the stickers away
from her right away and returned them to the shelf." . So, when I found a
year or so later that my toddler had walked out of that same store with a
stuffed animal, my husband's fault this time, I just kept it, and I bought a
toy of the same value, and donated it, brand new to a collection of toys for
children living in poverty at Christmas time, to make it morally right. But
that store lost the privilege of my extreme honesty when they treated me
like crap when I went to return a toy that had been taken very much by
accident by a baby. I live in New York State where the right of women to
Breastfeed their babies in public is protected under state law. Not all
states have this law. I was in one of those states and was feeding my
infant, discretely. My belly and one breast were covered entirely by my
shirt, my other breast was covered by my baby and a light weight cotton
nursing cover. A restaurant owner tried to kick me out and I refused to
leave. It isn't the law there yet, but damn it, it will be eventually, and
people like me will help make it happen. He eventually gave up and left me
alone. I was once eating lunch at a restaurant and the service was abysmally
slow. I had a train to catch and I had tried four or five times to request
the check. The server kept saying that she was working on it, but never
brought it. I looked at the menu prices on the Braille menu and added all of
them up, I added a dollar to each price in case the menu was out of date, I
calculated the appropriate sales tax and added a very small 5% tip, as the
service had been truly terrible. I wrote a note on a piece of scrap paper
saying that I had to go and that I could not wait for the bill. I gave the
money and the paper to the woman at the hostess stand and left. I had asked
the server several times what my total was, but she never told me, so my
guess was the best I could do, and so, on the note it said "Here is money
for all menu items purchased, plus $1 per thing, 8% sale's tax and a 5% tip
for my server, which she did not earn. If this is not enough money for the
bill, then it is on your staff for not providing me with a bill in over 30
minutes of requesting it, or with a total either." A cab driver once gave me
a huge hassle about charging me extra for my dog and quoted me a price of
$50 for a cab ride that should have been around $20 to $30. He absolutely
refused to read me what the meter said, so I gave him a 20 and a 5 and got
out of his cab. Now, if the meter said $27 or $28, then I technically stole
2 or 3 dollars from him, and, was I wrong? Absolutely not. He would not give
me information that as a sighted person I would have had access to, and so
he reaps the rewards of his poor treatment. I was not going to over pay him
by 20 to 30 dollars just to avoid shorting him by a few bucks. After my
weight loss surgery I often snuck a protein shake into a restaurant that did
not allow you to bring in any food or drink of your own. I was on a
medically necessary puree and liquids diet. I thought this was reasonable,
so the first time we went out to dinner it was at a burger place and the
restaurant threw a fit and told me that they had food for everyone and I
needed to give them my shake to dispose of and order one of their milk
shakes. I tried to explain that a zero carbs, high protein, soy free medical
shake is not the same thing as a high carb, high fat, high sugar dessert
milk shake, but they would not shut the heck up. I said "Look, unless you
have a comparable protein shake, or unless you can puree for me a mixture of
vegetables, not cooked in trans fats, with some real cheese, then you cannot
bar me from eating something prescribed by a doctor." After that I just lied
and snuck in the food I could eat and didn't give a darn about their stupid
policies because they were arbitrary and could not be fairly applied to me.
Last one. My baby had a very high fever and I was out of Tylenol. Jim was
out of town. I went to the drug store and got a bottle with the help of the
pharmacist. It was just as the pharmacy was closing, but the store would be
open for a few hours still. I got into a long line to pay at the pharmacy
counter. Half way through the pharmacist told us to go up to the main store
counter to pay, because he needed to close up for the evening, which was no
biggy. I went up there with some other people. I was last in the line
because I had to navigate to the front of the store so the others got there
ahead of me. I waited in-line at the store counter, while the pharmacist
closed up in the back of the store. When I got to the counter the clerk saw
me and my dog and started to go nuts, she was afraid of my dog. I Tried to
calmly explain that my dog was not going to hurt her and that there was a
counter between us. She was literally screaming. So I put Frieda at a down
stay about twelve feet from the counter and approached again. She started
screaming "Get that dog. Get that dog. Get a hold of that dog, it's going to
come and get me. Get your dog." So I went back and picked up her leash. She
had sat up, but not gotten off of the floor or walked anywhere. I went back
to the pharmacy counter to try and find the pharmacist to pay him, but he
had left and no one was behind the counter and it was dark back there. I
went around the store looking for another employee, but it was late and I
couldn't find anyone else. I went back to the counter where the lady was
alternately crying and cursing about me and my dog being in the store. I
think she was genuinely afraid, and genuinely a jerk, and this was a bad
combination. I said "Look, lady, calm the hell down. I am walking out that
door with this medicine in two minutes. If you will please take my credit
card and let me pay for it, that is great, if you won't? Then I'm just
taking it, because my son has a fever over 103 degrees." I was not going to
try some stunt like tossing my card to her from a distance, and risk her
losing or keeping it, or throwing her the box of medicine and risking her
refusing to give it back to me, when I could not find another one on the
shelves without sighted help. She wouldn't let me near the counter, every
time I tried to come close she would literally start screaming and cursing
at me, and my baby who had been fussing was now screaming in fear and
discomfort. I was so done with that crapola. And no, no customers were
around, or at least I couldn't find any of them and none approached me or
the clerk to try to help either one of us. so I left the store. I left a
voicemail message at the pharmacy explaining what had happened, and telling
them to call me the next day so that I could give them my credit card number
over the phone. They did, and I did, and all was well. This is all to say
that legal and moral are very different some times and all we can do is the
best that we can do.

Another question is what does retired mean? Let's say that in ten years when
Ilsa is 12, she is retired and living with me, and I have Brunhilda, from
the Seeing Eye. I didn't use Juno, because my last two dogs from TSE were
both German Shepherds and they were named, Frieda and then Ilsa. I remember
saying to Walt "Look, you gave me Frieda, now you're giving me Ilsa, what's
next? Brunhilda? We may have to have words about these names." *laughing*
So, anyway, let's say that Ilsa is retired and Brunhilda is my working
guide. Let's say that Brunhilda is very badly injured and I cannot afford a
cab and have no one to help me get her to the vet. If I have to load her up
into a kid's wagon and work Ilsa and get them both to the vet, then I will
do that. If I hadn't yet received Brunhilda, and one of my children was
seriously ill and I needed to get them to the doctor and for some reason
could not afford a cab and had no friend to help. I would absolutely pull
Ilsa from retirement for the sake of my child. If my retired guide was ill
and needed to get to the vet and the cabs, city busses and para-transit
busses did not allow pet dogs under any circumstances, and my dog's life was
in danger, I would absolutely slap a harness on them and get them to the vet
in the cab, or on the bus, even if they were fully retired. Of course I
would not do that if the situation was less serious and could wait. I would
not do this if the cab was guaranteed to take a pet and just charge me a
fee, I'd gladly pay it. But, if that was the only way to get my retired
guide medical care urgently, you bet I would do it. If there was some
national disaster and we had to flee the area and had to get on an airplane,
you bet I would Harness up and work Brunhilda, and Harness up retired Ilsa
and tell my son how to handle her, if the only alternative was to abandon
her in the face of the in-coming wild fire, hurricane, or terrorist attack.
Would it be honest? Nope. Would it take away a seat from a human being
needing to escape? No, it would not. Would it be the moral thing to do, to
save the life of a dog who has saved mine many times over? Absolutely it
would. So there are issues related to what is right, vs. what is legal. Now,
those examples are pretty rare or strange situations, and I do think that we
should follow the law almost all of the time, unless we are talking about an
unconstitutional law or one that violates human rights. For instance,
African Americans who refused to tolerate the laws of segregation. Lastly is
the issue of a semi-retired guide. Let's say that your guide is medically
retired because they cannot walk miles a day due to joint pain, but
emotionally they miss their work. So out of the five or six small routes you
work a day, you work your semi-retired dog once a day for their mental
health and to give your young healthy new guide a rest to hopefully keep
them working longer. Or, if your dog retires because of issues with
something that has begun to frighten them, let's say that they are now
afraid of being around large crowds because some jerk kicked them while you
were working in a crowd and now they stress yawn, squeak in distress, shake
and sometimes stress urinate when in very large crowds, but this dog's
country work is fantastic. Your new guide has pretty crappy country work.
You and the school have worked on it, but it just isn't all that great even
with some concerted effort and modest improvements. You work in New York
City and you live with your parents on the weekends in a fairly rural area
90 minutes away. So, perhaps you work your newer guide in the city, then on
the weekends you go all over your small town, hiking paths and rural area
with your semi-retired dog. So, there are a lot of issues at play in this
question. Julie also mentioned the craziness of her dog situation and also
the fact of it being her choice. That is exactly the point. We all have
choices we can make, most of the time what is moral will also be legal, but
sometimes they will not match up nicely, and then we have the choice to
select the moral or the legal option. Also, as we make choices for our
working dogs we operate within an interconnected system that contains many
other members which are factors in the whole fully retire vs. semi retire a
dog equation, and the keep the retired dog vs. rehome the retired dog
dilemma, heck, even the stick to the cane vs. go and get a guide dog
decision is based on these factors. I know many people who judge me for
allowing the Seeing Eye to rehome Frieda for me, I know others who would
judge me for having that many dogs in my house if I were to have a working
and a retired guide while Jim had a working and a retired service dog. I
know people who would judge Julie for having two guide dogs at once, and
others who judge other individuals I know who have two different kinds of
service dogs at once or who cross train their dogs, and of course, we all
know that there are people who judge us for using guides at all. So, the
bottom line is to do what is best for us, our dogs, our families, and
balance those needs and wants and come up with a solution that is best given
where we're at in our life journeys, who we are, and who we are surrounded
by.

Ok, that's enough of my two cents. *smile*

Heather Bird
"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -
Martin Niemöller
In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human
Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy VanderBrink
via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 5:32 PM
To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent

Hey folks,
So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you guys knew.

So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current guide.
I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.

Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you have
to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a pet fee?

Just curious to know what you've experienced.

Thanks,
Nancy

Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated using
voice dictation Nancy Irwin


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