[NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs & Rent

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Sat Jun 24 18:26:19 UTC 2017 

No, I totally got that, have known that for years.  
Tracy


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne & Harley
via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 2:04 PM
To: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
Cc: Wayne & Harley
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
Rent

*Hello Tracy,
I think that, perhaps, you missed the main point of my last post.
to whit: Dogs don't have rights, none. That the civil rights, and legal
protections are only granted to the human part of the Service Animal team.

Wayne And Harley D
*On 6/24/2017 8:41 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> I don't see how occasionally using a retired dog makes things more 
> difficult for anyone, speaking in terms of public access, not housing, 
> unless whatever caused the dog to retire is a physical or mental 
> illness, like aggressiveness or seizures, for example.
> Retirement doesn't flip a switch and make the dog forget all its training.
> If its just slowed down, or doesn't have the energy anymore to work 
> every day, and its handler works it once in a while, I don't see that 
> as a problem.
> Tracy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne & 
> Harley via NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 7:56 PM
> To: Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU
> Cc: Wayne & Harley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
> Dogs & Rent
>
> *    Hello Stacie,
> I'd like to offer a small clarification. While I agree with your 
> sentiment, there does need some clarifying.
> No dog, whether a Service Animal, or a pet have any rights.
> Perhaps you meant to say "**When our Service Animals retire, we no 
> longer have the same rights as when our Service Animal is working".
> Meaning that we no longer have the right to be accompanied by the 
> retired Service Animal in public, nor the right to not have to pay a 
> pet deposit for the retired Service Animal. I agree that those passing 
> their retired Service Animals off as working to claim benefits not due 
> them is definitely making it more difficult for owners of working Service
Animals.
>
> Wayne And Harley D
> k9dad at k9di.org
> "Remember, all Guide Dogs are Service Dogs, but not all Service Dogs 
> are Guide Dogs". ( I don't know who to attribute this to).
>
> *
>
> On 6/22/2017 8:46 PM, Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> We're just getting back from traveling, and I'm getting caught on 
>> some email. Saw this thread, and decided to read and respond. I 
>> completely agree with what Marion has said. When our guide dogs 
>> retire, they are no longer given the same rights as working guide or 
>> service dogs. I think people who try to pass off their retired guide 
>> dogs to get certain benefits are making things difficult for the 
>> working guide dogs. Just my thoughts. Looking forward to seeing some 
>> of you in Orlando. Warm regards.
>>
>> Stacie Hardy <shardy at nfbtx.org>
>> President: NFB of Texas Houston Chapter Voice and Text: (346) 
>> 704-0190 or (832) 779-7477
>>
>> "A question never asked is an answer never known"
>> "Live the life you want!"
>>
>> On 6/21/2017 8:50 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU wrote:
>>> The only thing I would say about this semi-retired thing is that 
>>> people don't get it. Let's imagine that you aren't paying a pet 
>>> deposit because your dog is a guide except that now he is 
>>> semi-retired. Let's imagine he was left alone in the apartment and, 
>>> say, a thunderstorm came up and those freak im out. Let's imagine 
>>> you have not seen this fact in him before, but suppose he tore up 
>>> the place in a panic while he was at home enjoying semi-retirement. 
>>> Would you then offer to pay for the damage? Might the landlord not 
>>> think that you were being a bit flexible of the dog's place in life? 
>>> I think I would not differentiate between retired and working unless 
>>> he is truly retired. If the dog was having problems where he 
>>> couldn't always work, I would just say he's my guide if he were 
>>> still working in that capacity.
>>>
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:29 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordanandbelto at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was 
>>> Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Semi retired means only working part time due to old age or helth.
>>> So, I
>>> don't think there is any problem in doing what I said.
>>> Jordan
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray 
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:18 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was 
>>> Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired 
>>> business.
>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during 
>>> my first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school 
>>> gave me permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me 
>>> because he had been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the 
>>> semester, but I learned some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going 
>>> to class with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not 
>>> destructive, but this fact alone had totally changed the 
>>> relationship between him, me, and the school for that matter.
>>>
>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a 
>>> get-together or a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I 
>>> would need to comply. It would have been wrong for me to argue this 
>>> point.
>>>
>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit, 
>>> and all of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not 
>>> live in that building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by 
>>> spades no matter where we stayed.
>>>
>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then 
>>> many went home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't 
>>> come along, and there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It 
>>> occurred to me just how unfair it was that my dog was there. He 
>>> wasn't a guide anymore, he was a pet. So I made the decision to 
>>> leave him at home after about six weeks. It had helped me through a 
>>> difficult time, but I had risked my relationships with many I think.
>>>
>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the 
>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He 
>>> was in harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because 
>>> with large tree equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was 
>>> traffic or not. I'm not sure it was ethical for me to do this; I did 
>>> not lie about who he was, and the dentist regarded him as a guide.
>>> This is not something I would make a practice of because I think he 
>>> either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a situation where pet 
>>> deposits were required,  I would pay it because Fisher is now a pet.
>>> Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new place to 
>>> live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed 
>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a 
>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending 
>>> on the terms of it.
>>>
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU 
>>> President via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired 
>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>>      In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. 
>>> The professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". 
>>> I believe this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law.
>>> In my opinion, taking advantage of the law by calling a retired 
>>> service dog "semi retired"
>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those 
>>> who take advantage of the law that provides us access to places of 
>>> public accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their 
>>> pet as a service dog? It is no different when we call our retired 
>>> service dog semi retired in order to avoid paying a pet deposit.
>>> Folks, we can't have it both ways! We cannot ask for those who 
>>> misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do so if we are 
>>> willing to act the same way.
>>>
>>>      I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly 
>>> archived on the internet. What you say and how you represent 
>>> yourself is here for the entire world to read. If you are willing to 
>>> compromise your integrity by suggesting someone act in a manner 
>>> contrary to ethics and law, you are telling the world a lot about 
>>> yourself. Is this the way you want others to think of you?
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National 
>>> Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>
>>>
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind 
>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>>> not what holds you back.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan 
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog 
>>> since you can have two service animals with no problems.  That is 
>>> what I would do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy 
>>> VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Hey folks,
>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you 
>>> guys knew.
>>>
>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current 
>>> guide.
>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>>
>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do 
>>> you have to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to 
>>> then pay a pet fee?
>>>
>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated 
>>> using voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>>
>>>
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>
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