[NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs & Rent

Wayne & Harley k9dad at k9di.org
Sat Jun 24 18:03:55 UTC 2017


*Hello Tracy,
I think that, perhaps, you missed the main point of my last post.
to whit: Dogs don't have rights, none. That the civil rights, and legal 
protections are only granted to the human part of the Service Animal team.

Wayne And Harley D
*On 6/24/2017 8:41 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU wrote:
> I don't see how occasionally using a retired dog makes things more difficult
> for anyone, speaking in terms of public access, not housing, unless whatever
> caused the dog to retire is a physical or mental illness, like
> aggressiveness or seizures, for example.
> Retirement doesn't flip a switch and make the dog forget all its training.
> If its just slowed down, or doesn't have the energy anymore to work every
> day, and its handler works it once in a while, I don't see that as a
> problem.
> Tracy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne & Harley
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 7:56 PM
> To: Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU
> Cc: Wayne & Harley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
> Rent
>
> *    Hello Stacie,
> I'd like to offer a small clarification. While I agree with your sentiment,
> there does need some clarifying.
> No dog, whether a Service Animal, or a pet have any rights.
> Perhaps you meant to say "**When our Service Animals retire, we no longer
> have the same rights as when our Service Animal is working".
> Meaning that we no longer have the right to be accompanied by the retired
> Service Animal in public, nor the right to not have to pay a pet deposit for
> the retired Service Animal. I agree that those passing their retired Service
> Animals off as working to claim benefits not due them is definitely making
> it more difficult for owners of working Service Animals.
>
> Wayne And Harley D
> k9dad at k9di.org
> "Remember, all Guide Dogs are Service Dogs, but not all Service Dogs are
> Guide Dogs". ( I don't know who to attribute this to).
>
> *
>
> On 6/22/2017 8:46 PM, Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> We're just getting back from traveling, and I'm getting caught on some
>> email. Saw this thread, and decided to read and respond. I completely
>> agree with what Marion has said. When our guide dogs retire, they are
>> no longer given the same rights as working guide or service dogs. I
>> think people who try to pass off their retired guide dogs to get
>> certain benefits are making things difficult for the working guide
>> dogs. Just my thoughts. Looking forward to seeing some of you in
>> Orlando. Warm regards.
>>
>> Stacie Hardy <shardy at nfbtx.org>
>> President: NFB of Texas Houston Chapter Voice and Text: (346) 704-0190
>> or (832) 779-7477
>>
>> "A question never asked is an answer never known"
>> "Live the life you want!"
>>
>> On 6/21/2017 8:50 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU wrote:
>>> The only thing I would say about this semi-retired thing is that
>>> people don't get it. Let's imagine that you aren't paying a pet
>>> deposit because your dog is a guide except that now he is
>>> semi-retired. Let's imagine he was left alone in the apartment and,
>>> say, a thunderstorm came up and those freak im out. Let's imagine you
>>> have not seen this fact in him before, but suppose he tore up the
>>> place in a panic while he was at home enjoying semi-retirement. Would
>>> you then offer to pay for the damage? Might the landlord not think
>>> that you were being a bit flexible of the dog's place in life? I
>>> think I would not differentiate between retired and working unless he
>>> is truly retired. If the dog was having problems where he couldn't
>>> always work, I would just say he's my guide if he were still working
>>> in that capacity.
>>>
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:29 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher <jordanandbelto at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Semi retired means only working part time due to old age or helth.
>>> So, I
>>> don't think there is any problem in doing what I said.
>>> Jordan
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:18 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired
>>> business.
>>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during
>>> my first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school
>>> gave me permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me
>>> because he had been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the
>>> semester, but I learned some interesting and eye-opening things.
>>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going to
>>> class with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not
>>> destructive, but this fact alone had totally changed the relationship
>>> between him, me, and the school for that matter.
>>>
>>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a
>>> get-together or a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I
>>> would need to comply. It would have been wrong for me to argue this
>>> point.
>>>
>>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit,
>>> and all of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live
>>> in that building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades
>>> no matter where we stayed.
>>>
>>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then many
>>> went home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come
>>> along, and there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It
>>> occurred to me just how unfair it was that my dog was there. He
>>> wasn't a guide anymore, he was a pet. So I made the decision to leave
>>> him at home after about six weeks. It had helped me through a
>>> difficult time, but I had risked my relationships with many I think.
>>>
>>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He
>>> was in harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because
>>> with large tree equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was
>>> traffic or not. I'm not sure it was ethical for me to do this; I did
>>> not lie about who he was, and the dentist regarded him as a guide.
>>> This is not something I would make a practice of because I think he
>>> either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a situation where pet
>>> deposits were required,  I would pay it because Fisher is now a pet.
>>> Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new place to
>>> live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed
>>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending
>>> on the terms of it.
>>>
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>> President via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired
>>> Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>>      In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I
>>> believe this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law.
>>> In my opinion, taking advantage of the law by calling a retired
>>> service dog "semi retired"
>>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those
>>> who take advantage of the law that provides us access to places of
>>> public accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their
>>> pet as a service dog? It is no different when we call our retired
>>> service dog semi retired in order to avoid paying a pet deposit.
>>> Folks, we can't have it both ways! We cannot ask for those who
>>> misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do so if we are
>>> willing to act the same way.
>>>
>>>      I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly
>>> archived on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself
>>> is here for the entire world to read. If you are willing to
>>> compromise your integrity by suggesting someone act in a manner
>>> contrary to ethics and law, you are telling the world a lot about
>>> yourself. Is this the way you want others to think of you?
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>> Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>
>>>
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>>> not what holds you back.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan
>>> Gallacher via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog
>>> since you can have two service animals with no problems.  That is
>>> what I would do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy
>>> VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>>
>>> Hey folks,
>>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you
>>> guys knew.
>>>
>>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current
>>> guide.
>>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>>
>>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you
>>> have to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay
>>> a pet fee?
>>>
>>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nancy
>>>
>>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated
>>> using voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>>
>>>
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>
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