[NAGDU] FW: [Njagdu] Blind woman and guide dog kicked off American Airline flight
Jordan Gallacher
jordanandbelto at gmail.com
Fri Mar 17 20:29:31 UTC 2017
I am still going to say that proper training of employees is the most important thing. Hoping the cab company where I lived has learned their lesson after having reroute with them twice. Not going to go into details here since it is off topic for this subject line.
Jordan
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 17, 2017, at 3:00 PM, Joe via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Cindy,
>
> Unless the employees are grabbing you and physically dragging you off, there
> is little point in allowing our emotions to get the better of us and
> skipping out on a teachable moment.
>
> Trust me, I understand the anger and frustration with missing a scheduled
> trip. I was previously denied service on a bus carrier twice in two separate
> states. The customer service agents and bus drivers all spoke poor English.
> Local police was slow to respond in both DC and New York. This was in the
> dead of winter, cold and raining, and even after I took them to federal
> court, I had a hard time pinning them down because they kept changing their
> company name. So, yes, I totally get it.
>
> However, if the situation taught me anything, it was to maximize the
> education I could impart given the unique scenario. I could either be an
> angry blind man or work the factors in the episode to leave some sort of a
> positive impression. In a different incident I was denied service again
> using a similar bus line. The police officer who responded had the audacity
> to say the bus company could deny me service since it was a private company.
> I need not tell you how incredibly pissed the remark made me. Let's not get
> into poor training and misleading facts, but I took a different approach. I
> asked if she understood the bus company was denying me service on the
> grounds of my Seeing Eye dog. She said she understood. I asked if she
> understood the Seeing Eye was what I used as a result of my disability, that
> the dog was every bit a part of my essentials to get around, basically a
> part of me, and again she said she understood. I then asked how she would
> feel if the same company refused to allow her to board one of their buses on
> the grounds of her being African-American? That gave her pause. I think she
> understood the situation a little better, but it is not something I would
> have come close to helping her realize had I submitted to my temper, which I
> assure you can be epic with stupid people.
>
> In a different scenario I was denied entry into a Chinese restaurant. The
> owner claimed health code violations. I called the police. Sadly, the police
> in that town was incompetent when it came to ADA matters, but I followed up
> with a call to a health inspector who stopped by the facility and set the
> owner straight on the legality of allowing service animals. I met up with
> the lady again later, and she apologized for the misunderstanding and gave
> me a free meal. No, not every incident is going to end this happily, but I
> firmly believe the only reason the incident was wrapped up so positively is
> because in the middle of the denial, I remained calm and collected.
>
> On lists like these, and in the company of fellow Federationists, it's easy
> to believe we are a well-known factor. We kind of assume the established
> laws will protect our right to move about without trouble, but you and I
> both know it does not always shake out that way.
>
> We might do well to remember a few points:
>
> 1. People do not encounter guide dogs, or service animals of any stripe, in
> public spaces on a regular basis. When they do, it is generally a novelty.
> We hope the encounter will be a positive one, but sometimes, rare but true,
> it will not be positive.
>
> 2. With more people passing off their pets as service animals, it's likely
> more employees at different establishments have encountered negative
> experiences. That's unfortunate for us, but that's the lay of the land these
> days. The uncooperative employees may not be reacting badly toward you, but
> rather, to a previous episode.
>
> 3. How we tackle a situation will have an impact on the blind person and
> guide dog coming behind us. I'll admit I hate being an ambassador for the
> rest of you, too much pressure, but because we are a minority, I try to keep
> in mind that my behaviors will reflect on the rest of my blind community.
>
> Of course, in situations like these, it is always best to figure out what
> you will do before the incident hits. You're never going to think clearly
> when you're in the middle of the stressful incident. It's like emergency
> preparation, so in my case, I think of what I might say to the uneducated
> people, and how I will say it. I think of how I might capture the incident,
> whether through audio or video or both, and I think of what steps I'll take
> to file a complaint against the company using whatever means I have at my
> disposal to make them the target of an investigation. Yes, I may very well
> be booted from an aircraft one day. I'll go away quietly enough, but I'll be
> damned if I don't make them feel the sting of the repercussion for having
> been discriminatory.
>
> I would never suggest we roll over and play docile. I fall into the
> Christian camp of people who will turn the other cheek, but boy, you better
> watch out for the fist coming round to greet you. I am simply suggesting we
> be more strategic. The fact that sighted people freak out and cause a
> nuisance does not mean we have to follow suit.
>
> Anyway, just some food for thought.
>
> Joe
>
> --
> Musings of a Work in Progress:
> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>
> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 12:38 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FW: [Njagdu] Blind woman and guide dog kicked off
> American Airline flight
>
> works. However, when someone is b eing threatened with being tossed off a
> plane/train, whatever, that's not a time to expect a teaching moment from
> the person. I am thinking that we need to be as nice as possible, but
> sometimes even when we are, we get accused of not being, or we get told made
> up stuff to try to shut us up. This I have a problem with. I think we need
> to be nice at all times if we can, but when you are threatened with being
> tossed from a plane somewhere and you have a schedule to meet, you feel very
> much alone and very much frightened. I think it is very difficult to turn
> something like that into a "teachable moment", so we need to find ways to do
> those when we are not in the throws of aa threat.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 8:40 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Joe <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FW: [Njagdu] Blind woman and guide dog kicked off
> American Airline flight
>
> Buddy,
>
> Yes, I have dealt with all manner of flight personnel. Please do not make
> assumptions of my experiences.
>
> I will candidly admit my level of tolerance has vastly differed depending on
> the level of stupidity, but what I can also admit is that regardless of
> their ignorance, a tempered approach has always fared better for me and the
> situation. I have been in situations where sighted traveling companions have
> reacted more vehemently to discrimination than myself, and while their
> gestures are well-intentioned, they too often make the situation worse and
> completely blow what could have been a good teaching moment for the
> employees and for the people witnessing the incident. After all, laws change
> policies, but they do not change minds. When we deal with Company X, we are
> still dealing with people. How we choose to educate them will have a lasting
> effect in how they view and treat blind people in the future. This is why I
> would hope that when dealing with flight crews, Uber drivers or whomever, we
> work hard at remaining polished and civil. Otherwise the only thing that
> person will remember is a negative encounter and develop an animosity that
> will tinge their encounters moving forward. Working the front lines in
> customer service is no easy feat and can cause patience to wear thin in the
> most inopportune moments.
>
> Am I suggesting the lady was behaving in a belligerent manner? No. But,
> that's just it. No one here knows firsthand what happened in that airplane.
> When one feels "helpless, afraid and terrified" as the passenger described,
> people behave differently than they might otherwise react, and we live in a
> world where certain places cannot process such behavior without consequence.
> It seems rather unusual to me that a flight crew would make the conclusion
> that their presence in the aircraft would cause a danger to the flight and
> jump to a last resort of removing someone from a flight, knowing full well
> that their actions would be documented and later require justification. But,
> maybe this crew was exceedingly misinformed. Maybe the passenger truly did
> attempt all recourse, and the crew, especially the pilot, all need to be
> fired for being so blatantly unreasonable and off script from company
> policies.
>
> The parallel to a rape victim is haphazard and preposterous. There were far
> more eloquent ways to make your point.
>
> Michael,
>
> My request for an agreement was to acknowledge we had only one side of the
> story, not to justify the airline's actions. As you say, it was wrong if
> they indeed had no justification for dismissing the passenger other than the
> dog taking up too much room. We do not know if this was the case. The whole
> bit about the first class exclusion is still a little confusing for me. I
> agree with your position on bulkhead. I'm kind of curious why the passenger
> would take a bulkhead seat assignment if the passenger knew her dog would
> generally not fit in such a space? I don't know, but as you also point out,
> we should be free to choose where we sit.
>
> I agree with others that something ought to be done. No one should be
> dismissed from a flight without repercussion. I take a dim view of NFB
> resolutions, finding them mostly ineffective, but I will gladly help author
> one if people feel that is our best course. I would rather see NAGDU play a
> role in integrating itself into the training curriculum of airlines, bus
> lines, and other forms of public transit where discrimination has been
> displayed.
>
> I'm sorry if it seems as though I am not supportive of a fellow member. I
> believe in treating every case equally and fairly. Blind people have the
> potential to be in the wrong as well. All I am stating is that we do not
> have sufficient facts, and American Airlines can hardly be vilified for what
> could amount to the lack of education on the part of one flight crew.
> Regardless, I do hope that the passenger is treated fairly according to what
> happened and properly compensated if warranted.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Joe
>
> --
> Musings of a Work in Progress:
> www.JoeOrozco.com/
>
> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 12:37 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] FW: [Njagdu] Blind woman and guide dog kicked off
> American Airline flight
>
> Dude. Are you freakin kidding me? Apparently you've never run into overly
> officious flight crews. I have, certainly not to this extent, but I have.
> And 20-30 years ago, this behavior was definitely not unheard of, and in
> similar fashion. Besides, Sue is definitely among the most competent and
> well put together handlers out there.
>
> Next you'll be telling me that that girl wouldn't've got raped had she not
> been dressed so provocatively. And yes, it's exactly the same kind of victim
> blaming, thanks for asking.
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 16, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Joe Orozco via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Can we agree we only have one side of the story here, and a limited
>> one at that? No, an airline should not kick someone off a flight, but
>> to claim danger to the flight, to me, suggests there could be more to
>> the story. I have seen fellow guide dog users become rather adamant in
>> their defense of their rights, and in a sensitive mode of
>> transportation such as airplanes, passengers with a variety of needs
>> should be mindful of the hyper sensitivity the crew is exercising in
>> prioritizing security. I am glad complaints are being filed. If wrong
>> is proven, the airline should do a lot more than issue an apology, but
>> let's remember we only have limited facts surrounding the incident.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>> On 3/16/17, Buddy Brannan via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Apology hell! She wants assurances and proof that they've had
>>> training
> on,
>>> you know, things like what the ACAA says (how many ways can we
>>> violate
> that
>>> in one flight?). But really, Sue Martin should freakin' *own* her an
>>> airline. Just sayin. While this sort of behavior was more common 30
>>> years
> or
>>> so ago, ask Mike Hingson, just...wow.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 16, 2017, at 11:06 AM, Chantel Cuddemi via NAGDU
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I saw that article on another list!
>>>> How horrible! I am very disappointed .
>>>> They owe her an apology for this.
>>>> Chantel.
>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:58 AM Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I wonder, as airlines have started charging for sitting in the
> bulkhead,
>>>>> if
>>>>> it will be harder to switch to sit there. I don't care myself, but
> some
>>>>> do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: NJAGDU [mailto:njagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ginger
>>>>> Kutsch via NJAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 9:41 PM
>>>>> To: New Jersey Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Ginger Kutsch
>>>>> Subject: [Njagdu] Blind woman and guide dog kicked off American
>>>>> Airline flight
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Blind woman and guide dog kicked off American Airline flight
>>>>>
>>>>> Samantha York, WLBZ 7:24 PM. EDT March 13, 2017
>>>>>
>>>>> Video at
>>>>>
>>>>>
> http://www.wlbz2.com/news/local/blind-woman-and-service-dog-kicked-off-ameri
>>>>> can-airlines-flight/422219883
>>>>>
> <http://www.wlbz2.com/news/local/blind-woman-and-service-dog-kicked-off-amer
> ican-airlines-flight/422219883>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> FRANKLIN, Maine (NEWS CENTER) -- After requesting a different seat
>>>>> -- Sue Martin, who is blind, and her service dog were kicked off of
>>>>> an
> American
>>>>> Airlines
>>>>>
>>>>> flight -- she said the pilot claimed she was a "danger to the flight".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sue Martin of Franklin has had her seeing eye dog, Quan, for the
>>>>> past year.
>>>>> She depends on him to navigate through her daily life. Martin had
>>>>> never run
>>>>>
>>>>> into an incident like this before her most recent trip to San Diego.
>>>>> There
>>>>> were several connecting flights -- all of which went smoothly until
>>>>> her connector
>>>>>
>>>>> flight from Washington DC to Dallas. She requested a different seat
>>>>> on the aircraft after she saw it would not accommodate her service
>>>>> dog. "There was not enough room for a 75 pound dog and three adult
>>>>> humans" Martin said.The two were asked to step off of the plane
>>>>> after several requests were
> made
>>>>> to
>>>>> change seats. "The man said, you have to leave the plane -- I asked
>>>>> him why and he said the crew had decided I was a danger to the
>>>>> flight" Martin said.
>>>>> "I've
>>>>>
>>>>> never had anything happen like this before". Martin claims there
>>>>> was no altercation between she and the flight attendants and that
>>>>> she couldn't understand why it escalated the way it did.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> She was traveling with her husband as well -- they had to re-book
>>>>> their flight with a completely different airline at a different
>>>>> airport. "I stood up, reached for Quan's harness and almost began
>>>>> to cry -- this is just so far out of the realm of anything I have
>>>>> ever experienced in all my
> years
>>>>> of
>>>>> travel" Martin said. "I felt helpless, I felt afraid, I was terrified.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin filed three separate complaints with the Airline -- it says
>>>>> it will be investigating the matter. NEWS CENTER reached out to the
>>>>> airline as well, a spokesperson said "We take all disability
>>>>> complaints very seriously, and are thoroughly investigating these
>>>>> allegations".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin stated she's worried about traveling with the airline in the
>>>>> future,
>>>>> especially if she is alone.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Some reassurance that American will better train its personnel is the
>>>>> only
>>>>> way I will feel comfortable getting on another American Airlines
> flight"
>>>>> Martin said. "I mean if they can kick a blind person off a plane whose
>>>>> dog
>>>>> is perfectly behaved, what can they do next? I don't know".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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