[NAGDU] Softer Dogs?
S L Johnson
SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
Wed Mar 22 19:38:44 UTC 2017
Hello:
I am responding to several message all at once so I apologize for the
length.
I definitely agree that softer dogs are a plus for those of us who cannot do
what we did twenty, thirty or in my case forty years ago. My first 15 years
I had male dogs that were tough . I could correct as hard as I could and
they just ignored me most of the time. My last twenty five years I have
had female soft dogs except one who was just as stubborn and strong as the
males were. I have also seen the two extremes of too tough or too soft. I
had Sunny who was a very stubborn golden. I would correct her as hard as I
could at times with both hands and she would just laugh at me and keep on
doing as she pleased. She knew she was much too strong and that I, who have
physical limitations was not strong enough to control her. When her trainer
and I made the decision to return her to the school it was decided that I
needed a softer dog.
The result was a dog at the extreme other end of the spectrum. When I got
Tara it was immediately obvious that she was a much softer dog. She never
needed leash corrections and raised voices would intimidate her. Tara
needed lots of encouragement. At times it felt as if she was afraid to make
a mistake. I would ask her to find something and she would slowly approach
it but not take me all the way up to it. When her trainer saw this he said
she was looking right at what I had asked her to find but seemed reluctant
to make a mistake so was not being assertive enough to take me right up to
what I had asked her to find. I found her reluctant in crowds and heavy
traffic too. The problem was that in some ways she was much too sensitive
to be a guide dog. After she was repeatedly attacked by another guide dog
she seemed to lose her confidence and willingness to work. It got so bad
that retirement was considered. I decided that while waiting to be accepted
for another dog I would continue working with Tara to see if I could help
her regain her confidence and love of work. It took a lot of consistent
work and the progress was very gradual but finally after six months Tara was
almost back to where she had been on class. It took another six months
before I felt she was all the way back. With a very sensitive dog you never
know how they will react to stressful situations. I always had to be ready
to give Tara lots of encouragement and coax her when she became unsure. Now
with Eva I have the best of both types of dog. She is very gentle with no
pull and needing no leash corrections. She is also very confident and seems
to handle any kind of working situation with eagerness and joy to be
working.
A trainer once told me that the school had begun to breed and train softer
dogs to accommodate the elderly and people with medical issues. He also
said that the softer dogs would cut down on the complaints from the general
public who would call to complain when they saw a dog being corrected. The
problem is that those softer dogs are not a good match for some people. I
think the schools still have to breed and train for all types from gentle
and soft to the more stubborn and tough. We as handlers are all different
so we will always need a wide variety of dogs. The same goes for training
methods. Clickers and treats will be right for some of us and different
types of collars and corrections will be best for others.
The one correction I feel should be eliminated is the high collar. A
trainer once seriously injured the throat of my dog when she would not stop
barking at other dogs. She had also been a victim of repeated attacks.
Instead of not wanting to work as Tara did, Heidi decided to bark at any dog
she saw before it attacked her. When I went back to the school with
her to work on the issue. I was hoping to work with a trainer using
positive methods to find ways for Heidi to be more confident and not be so
frightened when we encountered other dogs. The director of training had me
work past other trainers and their dogs. When Heidi, who was a 50 pound
shepherd, began to bark I corrected her. The director got mad shouting at
me I was not correcting hard enough. He grabbed Heidi's leash and proceeded
to give her such a hard high collar that he had that poor frightened little
shepherd hanging by her throat with all four paws off the ground while he
shouted at her to shut up and quit barking. He also insisted that when I
was around the other students Heidi wear a muzzle which I think is extremely
cruel. Her barking was not aggressive but fearful of being attacked again.
I immediately returned home with her and upon examination by my vet Heidi
was found to have swelling around her neck and throat and she had difficulty
swallowing. Obviously Heidi did not get over her fear of other dogs and as
a result of the cruel treatment she also became afraid of men especially
with raised angry voices. Instead of helping to solve a problem this cruel
method of correcting her only created new problems. Heidi's fears and
stress eventually led to her early retirement at only age four. If you see
no other way to control your dog but to use the high collar correction,
please be sure to do it properly. You should not just grab the dog and hang
it up in the air by their neck like that trainer did.
Sandra and Eva
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Belville via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 11:01 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Lisa Belville
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Softer Dogs?
Oh Tracey, I agree completely. I think we had a similar discussion last
year when we were discussing expectations for newer dogs and how the bar was
being steadily lowered. I get the need for a softer dog with an aging
population and donors not wanting to see the doggie getting corrected, yada,
yada, but a dog can be so sensitive that it can't handle any kind of
correction or work needing concentration and assertiveness, or some
combination of the two. Most schools expect some kind of informal work
right from the moment the matches are announced. Whether it's leash at the
GDF or healing our dogs around the building and to that very first
after-match announcement meal like they do at GDA, then that's when the
learning needs to start, in my opinion. I'm not saying we need to use hard
corrections, but the dog needs to start learning what the expectations are,
and we as handlers need to know how are dog reacts to praise or correction.
I was surprised how they used leash corrections when I trained with Paige at
GDA. We did use corrections, even a two handed one if it was necessary,
though mostly while on campus and not in the public eye. Generally we had a
class of very soft dogs-- one person's dog got spooked if the handler raised
their voice to the dog. This, IMO, is too soft, but it wasn't my dog. We
gave very firm verbal and physical corrections during group obedience and
food refusal sessions.
I think the degree of correction used is also up to the individual trainer's
discretion. I got a stern in-private talking to by one of Paige's trainers
when I gave her a harness snap for goofing off. Later, another trainer
suggested a two-handed correction when the same behavior started again.
Personally, a two-handed correction looks worse than a harness snap, but
what do I know.
Generally, Paige is a calm, submissive, dog who responds well to verbal
guidance, so I haven't had any serious need to correct her other than a
general leash snap.
Lisa
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com
IF THE HOUSEWORK IS DONE - THEN THE COMPUTER IS Broken!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tracy Carcione via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Softer Dogs?
> All that writing, and I for got something.
> This time, when I was at TSE, and we were walking to the dining room for
> the first time, trying to make our dogs heel, Krokus was being a total
> jerk, pulling as hard as he could. I tried the mild things my trainer
> said to do, and they were useless, so I gave him a good jerk to try to get
> him to stop pulling. My trainer came down on me like a ton of bricks! I
> was shocked. All my other dogs were expected to do at least some
> reasonable version of heel right off, and got corrected if they didn't.
> GDB particularly made a big deal of it. Heeling up and down the halls was
> one of the first things we did with our new dogs. But that was long ago.
> And I still expect some reasonable behavior right off the bat. But my
> trainers didn't seem to.
> But wait till next time. The dog will be acting the fool, and I'll get
> yelled at for not correcting him; just you wait and see.
> Tracy
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> The recent thread on obedience got me thinking about the way it feels
>> as though guide dog schools have grown softer in their approach to
>> correction.
>>
>> I received Gator from The Seeing Eye in 2004. I trained under Pete
>> Jackson, a no nonsense instructor who worked very hard at
>> understanding where the canine was coming from but not cutting any
>> slack where a hard correction was warranted. High collars, while not
>> eagerly encouraged, were a standard recommendation.
>>
>> I went back to TSE in 2015 and received Matthew. The training
>> atmosphere was noticeably more relaxed where corrections were
>> concerned. If high collars were mentioned at all, it was probably
>> because I asked about it. It felt as though there was a greater lean
>> toward clickers and treats.
>>
>> So, my question: For those of you who have handled dogs for a while,
>> have you noticed a similar trend, and if so, how have you adjusted
>> your own handling practices? I sometimes feel mean for running a tight
>> ship with Matthew, but I feel in some ways as though my first guide
>> dog instruction set the mood for my discipline philosophy moving
>> forward. I was never one to be unnecessarily aggressive. It looks
>> publically awkward, and I think such tactics have diminishing returns.
>> Yet, I am quick to leash correct for what may otherwise be considered
>> small infractions. How much of your own philosophy do you retain after
>> bringing your guide dog home?
>>
>> Thanks for any ponderings on the subject.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/missktlab1217%40frontier.com
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list