[NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,

Heather Bird heather.l.bird at gmail.com
Mon May 22 14:00:30 UTC 2017


  Hi, Sunshine. I am re posting it below so yew can see the scale. 
Perhaps that message slipped by in all of the heavy list traffic lately. 
Yes, I came up with it myself, but being that I am no expert and no 
professional, it is doubtless incomplete in some respects. For instance 
since posting it, I thought of a few other factors. For instance, being 
a person of size, I.E. drastically overweight should be grouped as a 
relevant factor along something like belonging to a racial minority. 
Living in poverty especially in a less than safe neighborhood should be 
grouped along with factors such as working in unsafe neighborhoods. 
Also, having a mental health disorder, whether or not you take 
medications, whether or not you receive counseling should be listed as 
factors. I would put things like bi-polar or sczitsafrania as a 5 factor 
and things like PTSD, Major depression or TBI as a 3 point item, and 
things like seasonal affective disorder or post partum depression as a 1 
factor. So, I would welcome any feedback so as to refine this tool. I 
think I might also run it by a few blind social workers and 
psychologests and see what they think about the factors and the point 
values that I have come up with. So, please see below for the post in 
its entirity.


Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,
     Hi, Brenda and list. Well, I want to talk about low and high risks 
related to ownership policies. I am not going to bash any school or to 
debate whether
ownership is a deal breaker issue, because for some people it is and for 
some it is not. What I want to do is to give you a rough outline of a 
scale you
can use to look at how the situation of a theoretical handler might 
increase or decrease their risk for an issue of repossession of a guide 
taking place.
You need not feel compelled to share your answers with the list, but it 
might be helpful to you or to other listers.

So, let's assume a few things and then consider them. A. You are a 
perfect handler, who receives the perfect dog, from a school who is 
always fair. In
that case, ownership would matter only in the theoretical realm of 
blindness philosophy, but logistically it wouldn't make any difference 
to the team.
However, no handler, dog, team or school is perfect. Next scenario. B. 
You are a great handler with a dog from  a not very reasonable school. 
There is
some risk, but not too much if the handler plays by the rules. C. You 
are not a very competent or compliant handler, but your school is also 
not a very
vigilant or punitive school, and so, no issues related to repossession 
of the dog are likely to arise. Finally, D. You are a substandard 
handler from a
very aware and parental school. You are almost certain to encounter 
trouble. . As no school is perfect, every single school will on occasion 
be unfair
to a handler, just as at every school there will be some handlers who 
screw up, that is life and the law of averages. I know of at least one 
handler from
the following schools who has shared with me that they have had a dog 
taken back, where, if they are being truthful, I absolutely feel that 
the school
was in the wrong, in whole or in part: GDB, GEB, Fidelco, GDD, GDF, UGDA 
(note, no longer exists) GDT. I know of at least one case of a handler 
engaging
in handling and treatment of the dog that I do think should have 
warranted repossession of the dog, again, if they were being truthful, 
in which the school
did nothing at the following schools: GEB, GDF, GDB, GDD, Eye Dog 
Foundation, UGDA (no longer exists) and Freedom Guide Dogs. Out of all 
of the schools
in the country I would recommend the Seeing Eye as your absolute best 
bet for avoiding the pitfalls that can come from a school's ownership 
policies. I
would say that Freedom is also a fairly low risk. I would say that 
Fidelco and GDB would be one of your highest risk schools and all of the 
rest fall somewhere
in the middle of the risk spectrum in terms of their history of 
repossessing dogs for both valid and invalid reasons. These are not at 
all quality statements
regarding the worth of either the dogs or the training programs. I am 
simply speaking to the issue of likelihood of a dog being removed from 
the handler's
care by the school. But, it is very important that you first figure out 
how much of a risk you face for an ownership policy to become 
troublesome for you
as a handler. See below:

I would suggest that you prioritize or not, the aspect of the ownership 
policy in your decision making process based on how great of a risk you 
face for
potentially upsetting your school. Now, I am not talking about harming, 
neglecting, beating or otherwise misusing or mistreating the dog, as A. 
you would
not do that, and B. those would be reasonable grounds for your dog to be 
taken away. What I am talking about are the factors that often cause 
schools to
take punitive action. Here is a list that is by no means exhaustive. See 
how many you check off, and then decide based upon that how important an 
ownership
policy is for you in your personal situations. Each item has a number 
after it. Add up your points at the end and calculate your score, then 
look at the
rough idea scoring guide. In each group of three, please only select one 
option, or if you don't ever fit any of those categories, then put down 
a zero.
I will give you my score at the end. These are only examples and not at 
all value judgements about you or any other lister. They are guidelines 
based on
what some schools have the potential to freak out about. Every school is 
different, every trainer or administrator is different, and schools can 
change
over time improving or declining, so, keep that in mind.

A.

You intend to feed your dog a raw diet, either the BARF method or the 
prey model diet, 5,

You intend to feed your dog a home cooked diet composed of cooked meat, 
eggs, grains and or vegetables and vitamin supplements, 3,

You intend to switch your dog off of the school's brand to an organic, 
human grade or grain free dry dog food, 1,

B.

You intend to cross train your dog to perform tasks to mitigate a 
secondary disability that you might have such as adding medical alert 
tasks, psychiatric
service, etc, 5,

You intend to add extensive additional training to enhance your guide 
dog's work, clicker training, target training, specialized find 
commands, running
with your dog, retrieval tasks, etc, 3,

You intend to make some minor modifications to your dog's command 
repertoire, such as adding a command to turn about 180 degrees, to find 
and distinguish
between words such as elevator, stairs and escalator, some mild hand 
targeting to aid in off-leash recall, etc, 1,

C.

You intend to engage in high intensity dog sports with your dog such as 
skijuring, agility trials, tracking or hunting or water rescue trials, 
etc, 5,


You intend to engage in some moderate intensity dog sports with your 
guide such as, fly ball, obedience trials, cross country skiing, walking 
marathons
or half marathons with your dog, 3,

You intend to engage in mild sports with your dog, hiking, participation 
in walks such as 5Ks and 10ks, 1,

D.

You intend to do tyders before getting any vaccines for your dog, to use 
only essential oils for flee and tick preventative, to utilize herbal 
supplements
for your dog, or to utilize the services of a veterinary acupuncturist, 5,

You intend to use conventional flee and tick preventative in the warm 
months and essential oils for control in the cold months, to use some 
nutritional,
but not herbal supplements, to use tyders for some vaccines, to minimize 
the use of antibiotics in many situations, you use the services of an 
accupressurist,
but not an acupuncturist, 3,

You intend to give all vaccines but to spread them out to separate 
visits, you will give flee and tick preventative year round, but you 
will separate it
from the heart worm preventative by one week, you use organic grooming 
products, you engage in canine massage,

E.

You order and use an alternative harness such as one sold by On the Go 
or Paw Power Creations, switch from a chain collar to a pinch collar or 
a simple
buckle collar, you have your dog where a light weight back pack to carry 
some of their own supplies, you dress your dog up in a full on costume 
for Halloween,
5,

You decline the booties the school issues and use Mushers' Secret 
instead, you use the school's harness but add harness signs and pouches, 
you switch from
a chain collar to a toggle collar or a martingale collar, you put 
t-shirts and other things on your dog to help remote causes and fund 
raisers important
to you, 3,

You regularly put decorative bandanas on your dog, you use a designer 
leash rather than the school's leash, you get a really flashy fun collar 
tag, 1,


F.

You regularly participate in marches, protests, march in gay pride 
parades or other potentially controversial demonstrations, such as right 
to life or
right to choose, 5,

You occasionally attend marches and protests, but they are not frequent 
and are on the tame to moderate side, 3,

You rarely, but sometimes attend controversial lectures, art 
exhibitions, seminars, etc, 1,

G.

You have a spouse, adult parent or child living with you who has 
intensive special needs which can sometimes include violent outbursts or 
intense bouts
of yelling or screaming, even if you have safe plans and management 
stratagies to use, 5,

You have a very hecktic life with one or more individuals in it who can 
become disruptive or potentially upsetting to your dog, 3,

You occasionally visit relatives or cliants who might have some of the 
challenges described in the first two options, 1,

H.

You belong to a minority group that often faces descrimination, LGBTQ, 
especially trans gendered individuals, individual with a green card but 
not full
citizenship in the United States, are a member of a polyamerous 
relationship, etc, you belong to a highly controversial organization or 
political party,
in which you working your dog might be noticed in public or in 
publicity, such as the KKK, the communist party, the socialist party, 
the Nazi party, (yes,
these extremely contraversicial political parties are legally allowed to 
exist and legally allowed to peacefully demonstrate, so I mention it, 
because
the blind are not universaly "good" "inocent" or "well behaved" as many 
sighted steroytypes would portray us) 5,

You are a member of a less controversial minority group, seventh day 
Adventist, strict Islam, orthodox Judaism, racial minority, etc, you 
belong to a group
that your school is moderately likely to object to your being publicly 
engaged with while working your dog, PETA, Green Peace, the Tea Party, 
etc, , the
occupy movement, 3,

You belong to some organizations which your school might object to your 
appearing in the literature or promotional materials with your dog, such 
as, NFB,
ACB, La Leche League, Gay Strait Alliance, Black Lives Matter, etc, 1,

I.

You evaluate your schools advice, conduct research, and often make 
decisions that contradict the advice given in lectures, such as opting 
to give squeak
toys, with close supervision, you will not give raw hide, but you think 
that elk antlers are acceptable, you wish to use another heart worm 
preventative
than what the school gives you, you ignore advice not to play tug with 
your dog, never to take them to a dog park, never ever to give your dog 
people food,
etc, and if your school challenged you, you would counter, respectfully, 
with research that supports your choice and expect to be able to have a 
reasonable
and civil debate about the issue, and would most likely continue with 
your practice if you truly felt that you were in the right, 5,

You occasionally do something different from what your school told you 
to do, but it is not all across the board and if your school asked you 
to stop,
yew would be willing to do so, but you would expect to be heard out as 
to your reasoning and not to be penalized, 3,

You rarely do things at odds with your schools advice, but you do not 
follow their guide lines to the letter and if asked to comply you would 
do so right
away and with apologies to the school, 1,

J.

You take your dog to very stressful environments, thoughtfully, 
carefully and knowledgeably, such as parades, amusement parks, Time 
Square on New Years,
brothels in places where this is legal, to watch a space shuttle launch, 
fire works displays at a distance, or at the event with ear protection 
for the
dog, hiking in truly remote wilderness areas, white water rafting, 5,

You take your dog into situations such as dangerous inner city 
neighborhoods, crowded festivals, to dog shows as a spectator, into 
jails or psychiatric
wards, rock concerts, strip clubs, adult book or toy stores,etc, 3,

You take your dog to, cruise ships, musical theater performances with 
very loud music, theater performances with fake violence, gun shots, 
smoke and strobe
light effects, bars, especially controversial bars such as gay bars or 
biker bars, 1,

There are ten groups, so your maximum score could be 50, your minimum 
score could be 0, a low risk person might have a score of around 10 to 
20, a very,
very low risk would be a score of 0 to 10. A moderate risk handler might 
have a score of 20 to 35 and a high risk handler might have a score of 
35 to 50.
My score is 40. What puts me into this category? Things like having a 
spouse with PTSD who is never violent but who can yell a lot and rarely 
engages in
behaviors like hitting a wall or slamming a door, using a harness made 
by On The Go, not my school's harness, feeding a raw diet, being a woman 
who unashamedly
breastfeeds in public with my guide laying at my feet, teaching 
extensive additional commands, although not cross training my dog for 
other disabilities,
walking 5ks with my dog and fully intending to acclimatize her and I and 
try to walk a marathon or half marathon with her, marching in protests, 
attending
parades or a fireworks display from an increased distance, and also with 
ear protection for the dog, and so on.

For me personally, an ownership policy is one of the most important 
issues. If you scored 50? Then not considering ownership would be truly 
foolish, but
that is a true extreme, and I highly doubt that you would score a 50. If 
you score a 0, then rest assured that your risk is virtually 
non-existent, and
aside from any philosophical objections you might have, the functional 
reality for you makes ownership a non-issue. Again, I highly doubt that 
you scored
a 0. You can do this on your own, think about your score, and certainly 
any other factors I may have missed, then you can decide for you 
personally whether
the ownership is a thing or not, and either way, you must do what is 
right for you. So, I'm not debating the ownership question. For me 
personally it is
supremely important, it might also wind up being a crucial point for 
you, or it might be a virtual non-issue. However, you should not rule it 
out as a
potentially crucial factor until and unless you have assessed your risk 
for encountering difficulties with your school based on who you are, how 
you live,
what you do, how you handle your dog, what challenges you face, etc.

I hope twas helpful.


On 5/22/2017 9:45 AM, Sunshine via NAGDU wrote:
> I never really had a concern regarding ownership. However, if ownership is really important to folks, then they should select schools that offer that option. I've not ever had a problem with schools removing my guides, but at one school, I filled out ownership papers after two years the second time around. However, I knew that no one would remove my guide's. I wish I had your orginal post, Heather, as it would be interesting to see where I score! Smiles! It looks like a great tool. Did you formulate this survey yourself? Smiles!
>
> Seeing Eye is a great school, was my first and it will always be in my heart. I've only been to one other school, a very good one, but TSE truly is where I would like to be. My other school is good and I have no complaints, but TSE is definitely in my blood!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lisa via NAGDU  <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"  <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Monday, May 22, 2017 8:33 am
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,
>
>>
>> Hi Heather,
>>
>>
>> wow, thanks so much for sharing this.
>>
>> I'm in Germany and theoretically, this debate about ownership is not
>> important for me because over here things are handled very differently
>> in the guide dog system but I still answered the questions. I got only a
>> 20. I was a bit surprised, I had expected more. But these questions are
>> so important to understand how much of an issue ownership policies can
>> be for some people including myself.
>>
>> I would feel seriously limited in handling my dog if I knew my school
>> would react to things like teaching him additional tasks or taking him
>> to this or that event negatively.
>>
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 22.05.2017 um 13:56 schrieb margo Downey via NAGDU:
>>> I scored 41.
>>>
>>> Margo and Isis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 7:00 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Julie Johnson
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing
>>> contained within,
>>>
>>> I love this tool!  Thanks so much for creating and sharing it!  I score in
>>> the mid to upper 20's'''x's early and I haven't finished my first
>>> cup of coffee so math is not my strong suit right now. ininsmile*   I'm
>>> also a long, long way from thinking about a new dog and whether or not I'll
>>> attend a program for that dog.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I did want to add one thought to this excellent tool. Consider how
>>> your life might change to include things that you do not currently
>>> participate in.  I'm thinking in particular about sporting events, marches,
>>> concerts, bars etc.  If you are a young person living at home or just
>>> getting ready to go off to college, your life can look very different than
>>> it does now in just a couple of years.  I live in a very small town that
>>> simply does not have some of these things as an option for me to
>>> participate in. I have no plans of moving, but life happens.
>>> Might I want to do some of these things in the future?  Perhaps, and I do
>>> think I'd like to have the option of working my dog if I felt it
>>> appropriate.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/22/2017 1:06 AM, Daryl via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> This is a very thorough assessment tool. Depending on how I choose to
>>>> view it, my score would probably be somewhere between 26 and 30. I'm
>>>> half asleep, so my math could be wrong. In any case, it does tell me
>>>> the type of school I would need to attend and that ownership does need
>>>> to be a consideration with a successor dog. :com) thank you for this
>>>> very thorough tool. :com)
>>>>
>>>> On May 21, 2017 10:31:46 PM MDT, Heather Bird via NAGDU
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>       Hi, Brenda and list. Well, I want to talk about low and high
>>>>> risks related to ownership policies. I am not going to bash any
>>>>> school or to debate whether ownership is a deal breaker issue,
>>>>> because for some people it is and for some it is not. What I want to
>>>>> do is to give you a
>>>>>
>>>>> rough outline of a scale you can use to look at how the situation of
>>>>> a theoretical handler might increase or decrease their risk for an
>>>>> issue of repossession of a guide taking place. You need not feel
>>>>> compelled to
>>>>>
>>>>> share your answers with the list, but it might be helpful to you or
>>>>> to other listers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let's assume a few things and then consider them. A. You are a
>>>>> perfect handler, who receives the perfect dog, from a school who is
>>>>> always fair. In that case, ownership would matter only in the
>>>>> theoretical realm of blindness philosophy, but logistically it
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>
>>>>> make any difference to the team. However, no handler, dog, team or
>>>>> school is perfect. Next scenario. B. You are a great handler with a
>>>>> dog
>>>>>
>>>> >from  a not very reasonable school. There is some risk, but not too
>>>>> much
>>>>> if the handler plays by the rules. C. You are not a very competent or
>>>>> compliant handler, but your school is also not a very vigilant or
>>>>> punitive school, and so, no issues related to repossession of the dog
>>>>> are likely to arise. Finally, D. You are a substandard handler from a
>>>>> very aware and parental school. You are almost certain to encounter
>>>>> trouble. . As no school is perfect, every single school will on
>>>>> occasion be unfair to a handler, just as at every school there will
>>>>> be some handlers who screw up, that is life and the law of averages.
>>>>> I know of at least one handler from the following schools who has
>>>>> shared with me that they have had a dog taken back, where, if they
>>>>> are being truthful,
>>>>>
>>>>> I absolutely feel that the school was in the wrong, in whole or in
>>>>> part:
>>>>> GDB, GEB, Fidelco, GDD, GDF, UGDA (note, no longer exists) GDT. I
>>>>> know of at least one case of a handler engaging in handling and
>>>>> treatment of
>>>>>
>>>>> the dog that I do think should have warranted repossession of the
>>>>> dog, again, if they were being truthful, in which the school did
>>>>> nothing at the following schools: GEB, GDF, GDB, GDD, Eye Dog
>>>>> Foundation, UGDA (no
>>>>>
>>>>> longer exists) and Freedom Guide Dogs. Out of all of the schools in
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> country I would recommend the Seeing Eye as your absolute best bet
>>>>> for avoiding the pitfalls that can come from a school's ownership
>>> policies.
>>>>> I would say that Freedom is also a fairly low risk. I would say that
>>>>> Fidelco and GDB would be one of your highest risk schools and all of
>>>>> the rest fall somewhere in the middle of the risk spectrum in terms
>>>>> of their history of repossessing dogs for both valid and invalid
>>>>> reasons. These are not at all quality statements regarding the worth
>>>>> of either the dogs or the training programs.  I am simply speaking to
>>>>> the issue of likelihood of a dog being removed from the handler's
>>>>> care by the school.
>>>>> But, it is very important that you first figure out how much of a
>>>>> risk you face for an ownership policy to become troublesome for you
>>>>> as a handler. See below:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would suggest that you prioritize or not, the aspect of the
>>>>> ownership
>>>>>
>>>>> policy in your decision making process based on how great of a risk
>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>> face for potentially upsetting your school. Now, I am not talking
>>>>> about
>>>>>
>>>>> harming, neglecting, beating or otherwise misusing or mistreating the
>>>>> dog, as A. you would not do that, and B. those would be reasonable
>>>>> grounds for your dog to be taken away. What I am talking about are
>>>>> the factors that often cause schools to take punitive action. Here is
>>>>> a list that is by no means exhaustive. See how many you check off,
>>>>> and then decide based upon that how important an ownership policy is
>>>>> for you in your personal situations. Each item has a number after it.
>>>>> Add up your points at the end and calculate your score, then look at
>>>>> the rough idea
>>>>>
>>>>> scoring guide. In each group of three, please only select one option,
>>>>> or if you don't ever fit any of those categories, then put down a
>>>>> zero. I will give you my score at the end. These are only examples
>>>>> and not at all value judgements about you or any other lister. They
>>>>> are guidelines
>>>>>
>>>>> based on what some schools have the potential to freak out about.
>>>>> Every
>>>>>
>>>>> school is different, every trainer or administrator is different, and
>>>>> schools can change over time improving or declining, so, keep that in
>>>>> mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A.
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to feed your dog a raw diet, either the BARF method or the
>>>>> prey model diet, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to feed your dog a home cooked diet composed of cooked
>>>>> meat,
>>>>>
>>>>> eggs, grains and or vegetables and vitamin supplements, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to switch your dog off of the school's brand to an
>>>>> organic, human grade or grain free dry dog food, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> B.
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to cross train your dog to perform tasks to mitigate a
>>>>> secondary disability that you might have such as adding medical alert
>>>>> tasks, psychiatric service, etc, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to add extensive additional training to enhance your guide
>>>>> dog's work, clicker training, target training, specialized find
>>>>> commands, running with your dog, retrieval tasks, etc, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to make some minor modifications to your dog's command
>>>>> repertoire, such as adding a command to turn about 180 degrees, to
>>>>> find
>>>>>
>>>>> and distinguish between words such as elevator, stairs and escalator,
>>>>> some mild hand targeting to aid in off-leash recall, etc, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C.
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to engage in high intensity dog sports with your dog such
>>>>> as
>>>>>
>>>>> skijuring, agility trials, tracking or hunting or water rescue
>>>>> trials, etc, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to engage in some moderate intensity dog sports with your
>>>>> guide such as, fly ball, obedience trials, cross country skiing,
>>>>> walking marathons or half marathons with your dog, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to engage in mild sports with your dog, hiking,
>>>>> participation in walks such as 5Ks and 10ks, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> D.
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to do tyders before getting any vaccines for your dog, to
>>>>> use only essential oils for flee and tick preventative, to utilize
>>>>> herbal supplements for your dog, or to utilize the services of a
>>>>> veterinary acupuncturist, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to use conventional flee and tick preventative in the warm
>>>>> months and essential oils for control in the cold months, to use some
>>>>> nutritional, but not herbal supplements, to use tyders for some
>>>>> vaccines, to minimize the use of antibiotics in many situations, you
>>>>> use the services of an accupressurist, but not an acupuncturist, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You intend to give all vaccines but to spread them out to separate
>>>>> visits, you will give flee and tick preventative year round, but you
>>>>> will separate it from the heart worm preventative by one week, you
>>>>> use organic grooming products, you engage in canine massage,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> E.
>>>>>
>>>>> You order and use an alternative harness such as one sold by On the
>>>>> Go or Paw Power Creations, switch from a chain collar to a pinch
>>>>> collar or
>>>>>
>>>>> a simple buckle collar, you have your dog where a light weight back
>>>>> pack to carry some of their own supplies, you dress your dog up in a
>>>>> full on
>>>>>
>>>>> costume for Halloween, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You decline the booties the school issues and use Mushers' Secret
>>>>> instead, you use the school's harness but add harness signs and
>>>>> pouches, you switch from a chain collar to a toggle collar or a
>>>>> martingale collar, you put t-shirts and other things on your dog to
>>>>> help remote causes and fund raisers important to you, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You regularly put decorative bandanas on your dog, you use a designer
>>>>> leash rather than the school's leash, you get a really flashy fun
>>>>> collar tag, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> F.
>>>>>
>>>>> You regularly participate in marches, protests, march in gay pride
>>>>> parades or other potentially controversial demonstrations, such as
>>>>> right to life or right to choose, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You occasionally attend marches and protests, but they are not
>>>>> frequent
>>>>>
>>>>> and are on the tame to moderate side, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You rarely, but sometimes attend controversial lectures, art
>>>>> exhibitions, seminars, etc, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> G.
>>>>>
>>>>> You have a spouse, adult parent or child living with you who has
>>>>> intensive special needs which can sometimes include violent outbursts
>>>>> or intense bouts of yelling or screaming, even if you have safe plans
>>>>> and management stratagies to use, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You have a very hecktic life with one or more individuals in it who
>>>>> can
>>>>>
>>>>> become disruptive or potentially upsetting to your dog, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You occasionally visit relatives or cliants who might have some of
>>>>> the challenges described in the first two options, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> H.
>>>>>
>>>>> You belong to a minority group that often faces descrimination,
>>>>> LGBTQ, especially trans gendered individuals, individual with a green
>>>>> card but
>>>>>
>>>>> not full citizenship in the United States, are a member of a
>>>>> polyamerous relationship, etc, you belong to a highly controversial
>>>>> organization or
>>>>>
>>>>> political party, in which you working your dog might be noticed in
>>>>> public or in publicity, such as the KKK, the communist party, the
>>>>> socialist party, the Nazi party, (yes, these extremely
>>>>> contraversicial political parties are legally allowed to exist and
>>>>> legally allowed to peacefully demonstrate, so I mention it, because
>>>>> the blind are not universaly "good" "inocent" or "well behaved" as
>>>>> many sighted steroytypes would portray us) 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You are a member of a less controversial minority group, seventh day
>>>>> Adventist, strict Islam, orthodox Judaism, racial minority, etc, you
>>>>> belong to a group that your school is moderately likely to object to
>>>>> your being publicly engaged with while working your dog, PETA, Green
>>>>> Peace, the Tea Party, etc, , the occupy movement, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You belong to some organizations which your school might object to
>>>>> your
>>>>>
>>>>> appearing in the literature or promotional materials with your dog,
>>>>> such as, NFB, ACB, La Leche League, Gay Strait Alliance, Black Lives
>>>>> Matter,
>>>>>
>>>>> etc, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I.
>>>>>
>>>>> You evaluate your schools advice, conduct research, and often make
>>>>> decisions that contradict the advice given in lectures, such as
>>>>> opting to give squeak toys, with close supervision, you will not give
>>>>> raw hide, but you think that elk antlers are acceptable, you wish to
>>>>> use another heart worm preventative than what the school gives you,
>>>>> you ignore advice not to play tug with your dog, never to take them
>>>>> to a dog park,
>>>>>
>>>>> never ever to give your dog people food, etc, and if your school
>>>>> challenged you, you would counter, respectfully, with research that
>>>>> supports your choice and expect to be able to have a reasonable and
>>>>> civil debate about the issue, and would most likely continue with
>>>>> your practice if you truly felt that you were in the right, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You occasionally do something different from what your school told
>>>>> you to do, but it is not all across the board and if your school
>>>>> asked you to stop, yew would be willing to do so, but you would
>>>>> expect to be heard out as to your reasoning and not to be penalized,
>>>>> 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You rarely do things at odds with your schools advice, but you do not
>>>>> follow their guide lines to the letter and if asked to comply you
>>>>> would
>>>>>
>>>>> do so right away and with apologies to the school, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J.
>>>>>
>>>>> You take your dog to very stressful environments, thoughtfully,
>>>>> carefully and knowledgeably, such as parades, amusement parks, Time
>>>>> Square on New Years, brothels in places where this is legal, to watch
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>> space shuttle launch, fire works displays at a distance, or at the
>>>>> event with ear protection for the dog, hiking in truly remote
>>>>> wilderness areas, white water rafting, 5,
>>>>>
>>>>> You take your dog into situations such as dangerous inner city
>>>>> neighborhoods, crowded festivals, to dog shows as a spectator, into
>>>>> jails or psychiatric wards, rock concerts, strip clubs, adult book or
>>>>> toy storeseaetc, 3,
>>>>>
>>>>> You take your dog to, cruise ships, musical theater performances with
>>>>> very loud music, theater performances with fake violence, gun shots,
>>>>> smoke and strobe light effects, bars, especially controversial bars
>>>>> such as gay bars or biker bars, 1,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are ten groups, so your maximum score could be 50, your minimum
>>>>> score could be 0, a low risk person might have a score of around 10
>>>>> to 20, a very, very low risk would be a score of 0 to 10. A moderate
>>>>> risk handler might have a score of 20 to 35 and a high risk handler
>>>>> might have a score of 35 to 50. My score is 40. What puts me into
>>>>> this category? Things like having a spouse with PTSAID who is never
>>>>> violent but who can yell a lot and rarely engages in behaviors like
>>>>> hitting a wall or slamming a door, using a harness made by On The Go,
>>>>> not my school's harness, feeding a raw diet, being a woman who
>>>>> unashamedly breastfeeds in public with my guide laying at my feet,
>>>>> teaching extensive additional commands, although not cross training
>>>>> my dog for other disabilities, walking 5ks with my dog and fully
>>>>> intending to acclimatize her and I and try to walk a marathon or half
>>>>> marathon with her, marching in protests,
>>>>>
>>>>> attending parades or a fireworks display from an increased distance,
>>>>> and also with ear protection for the dog, and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For me personally, an ownership policy is one of the most important
>>>>> issues. If you scored 50? Then not considering ownership would be
>>>>> truly
>>>>>
>>>>> foolish, but that is a true extreme, and I highly doubt that you
>>>>> would score a 50. If you score a 0, then rest assured that your risk
>>>>> is virtually non-existent, and aside from any philosophical
>>>>> objections you
>>>>>
>>>>> might have, the functional reality for you makes ownership a non-issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I highly doubt that you scored a 0. You can do this on your
>>>>> own,
>>>>>
>>>>> think about your score, and certainly any other factors I may have
>>>>> missed, then you can decide for you personally whether the ownership
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>> a thing or not, and either way, you must do what is right for you.
>>>>> So, I'm not debating the ownership question. For me personally it is
>>>>> supremely important, it might also wind up being a crucial point for
>>>>> you, or it might be a virtual non-issue. However, you should not rule
>>>>> it out as a potentially crucial factor until and unless you have
>>>>> assessed your risk for encountering difficulties with your school
>>>>> based on who you are, how you live, what you do, how you handle your
>>>>> dog, what challenges you face, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope twas helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5/19/2017 12:36 PM, Brenda via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello List,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this week my pet dog Sadie passed over the rainbow bridge.  She was
>>>>> 15
>>>>>> years old and we had a wonderful life together. She is playing with
>>>>>> her cat sisters who have gone before her. I will miss her and am
>>>>> still
>>>>>> sad, but she is no longer suffering so I'm at peace.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As my vision waned over the years, I became more and more interested
>>>>>> in getting a guide dog, but sadie who was an APL rescue didn't like
>>>>>> other dogs. I did get O&m training to maintain my independence and
>>>>>> have been using my skills and now I am ready to apply for a guide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been surfing the guide dog school websites and reading posts
>>>>>> from here and elsewhere about different guide dog schools and am now
>>>>>> trying to sort things out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Several schools at the top of my list do not grant full ownership.
>>>>>> This concerns me, but other than that I like the schools.  One
>>>>>> school that does grant ownership is in California.  I live in Ohio
>>>>>> and don't want to be on a plane for a long time.  that may be silly,
>>>>>> but I
>>>>> can't
>>>>>> get over it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So'''I would appreciate Listers input/opinions/guidance/thoughts on
>>>>> my
>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the school I really like is Guiding eyes for the Blind.  They do not
>>>>>> grant ownership at all, but I have not heard/read  anything negative
>>>>>> about them. I doubt they are in business to develop teams only to
>>>>> take
>>>>>> the dog away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My intent is not to debate ownership issues.  I want to learn
>>>>> Listers'
>>>>>> experiences with nonownership schools with the focus on GEB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for any input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>> mail.co
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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